Ire Aderinokun on unlocking crypto's potential

Rob Goodman:

Hi everyone. And welcome to Now What? The podcast from Wix about how technology is changing everything. I'm your host, Rob Goodman. And in this series, we're talking all about evolution in business, design, development and beyond. In this episode we're joined by Ire Aderinokun, front end web developer, and user interface designer from Lagos, Nigeria. She's the co-founder and COO of Buycoins, a cryptocurrency exchange for Africa. Her company was also selected for the Y Combinator startup accelerator program as part of their 2018 session. Ire is a Google expert specializing in core front-end technologies like HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

Rob Goodman:

And she's also a founding member of the Feminist Coalition, whose mission is to champion equality for women in Nigerian society era. Ire and I talk about her journey as a self-taught front end developer and UI designer. We go deep into the power of cryptocurrency as a means of shaping economies and opening up new opportunities for citizens and business owners alike. We talk about how UI design will be critical in driving greater crypto adoption across the masses. And we speak about her work advocating for women's equality. You're in for an inspiring conversation with the Ire about design, development, cryptocurrency and the future of user experience for FinTech. Now let's get started. Ire, welcome to the Now What? Podcast.

Ire:

Hi, thanks for having me.

Rob Goodman:

Absolutely thrilled to have you here. And I'd love to kick things off hearing a little bit more about Buycoins, which is the startup that you have co-founded, tell us about what Buycoins is all about.

Ire:

Buycoins is a cryptocurrency exchange. So that means it's just a platform that allows users to buy and sell different types of cryptocurrencies. The most popular one is Coinbase. So we are like Coinbase, but we're focused on servicing the Nigerian and African market.

Rob Goodman:

Why did you start Buycoins?

Ire:

For me, it was actually just a fun project to do. I didn't really think of it in the grand scheme of things or, okay, this is something that has the potential to really change things. It was just a fun and different project. Myself and my co-founders, so two of us were in Nigeria and then one of us was in the US and myself and my co-founder there in Nigeria, we wanted to just send money to the US because we wanted him to buy us the new iPhone basically. And it was just such a struggle to do that through the regular channels. And we thought okay, let's try crypto. And sending crypto to our partner in the US was pretty seamless. And he had Coinbase, so he was able to liquidate it, but then getting crypto with naira was quite a stressful process.

Ire:

So we were thinking oh, maybe this is something that we can actually try to improve, because most things were just weird peer to peer things. You had to have a lot of trust in the person you are treating with. And we thought there must be a way to create a Coinbase experience for Nigeria. So, that's just how it started. And even when I started, because I'm a front end developer, so I did all the fun and code and stuff, I didn't know that much about crypto in general. I just saw it as a nice challenge to try and build something different, but over time I've seen a lot more about the value crypto brings, especially to Nigerians and Africans and why it's very important for us. The initial thing was just oh, fun, new project, but now I can see the grander scheme of why it's important.

Rob Goodman:

So talk to me a little bit about how cryptocurrency and FinTech can specifically change what is happening in Africa and open up opportunities for entrepreneurs, but also this more seamless flow of capital.

Ire:

The value that we've started to see of how crypto is good for us in Nigeria and the rest of Africa, it's something that even when we're doing our first ever pitch and we were trying to think okay, what really differentiates us from other things, we realized that the issue was that Nigerians and Africans actually really need crypto. And that's because we are actually facing very real issues with our currency that crypto can actually help to solve. So stuff from devaluation, all the way to government intervention, which we've actually really experienced in the past year, things like with the Nigerian government just shutting down bank accounts and stuff. And then crypto is literally the only option that people can use to transact. In terms of entrepreneurship, I think crypto has been great in well, for one, just supporting the person, trying to have access to international money.

Ire:

Because once you leave Nigeria, for example, your naira literally is not useful anywhere else. Myself and my friends, a few years ago, we went to Benin Republic, which is literally right next to Nigeria, and in order for us to get the local currency there, we had to first go from our naira to dollars, then dollars to the local currency. It's just ridiculous. And I had a friend that was having issues. He was stuck in Ghana and I literally had to send him money through Coinbase that he could access and liquidate, rather than me sending him naira through my bank account. It's just ridiculous things like that, that crypto really helps solve. And then obviously for people like us actually developing crypto powered applications and stuff, we've seen how it's really helped in the FinTech ecosystem in general. So we see even a lot of non-crypto companies finding ways to leverage crypto because it's almost just easier to deal with than naira in a lot of ways.

Rob Goodman:

Let's take a step back and talk a little bit about your own personal evolution. I know from hearing interviews with you that your mom would always say, "Oh, there's Ire, she's just always on her computer." And now you've turned that into your career, which is a good gotcha to the parents. And then you studied psychology and you studied law when you were in school and you came upon front end engineering and development on your own. You're self-taught. So talk to me about that journey and this discovery of engineering and development being the thing that you wanted to pursue.

Ire:

Yeah. I think it was quite I guess a little bit of a weird way to get into this, but I have actually met a few other people that had a similar introduction into coding. So it was through this online site called Neopets and it's basically just some online game where you have a pet and you have games and stuff, but as part of it you can really design your own page and then they introduce you to front end development, or just HTML and CSS, as a way to design your page. So that was a gateway drug for myself and a lot of other people that I've actually met. So that was my first introduction into it and it was just something that I enjoyed doing a lot.

Ire:

So I would just do it, I guess, as a hobby. And if I knew a friend that needed a website or some sort of design thing, I would always try to be the one to help with that. I never really considered it a career because I didn't really know that much about the industry. And particularly in Nigeria, there's almost only three careers you can be. You can be a lawyer or a doctor or a business person basically. So we weren't really introduced to these different types of things. So it wasn't until I was doing my master's that I actually understood what computer science as a degree was. And then I realized that oh, I should have probably done that from the beginning.

Ire:

And so I just decided to go the self taught route. So I would just do online courses and things like that. I just built myself up from there. I did freelance for a while. Then I worked with companies in Nigeria. I also worked for one company that was based in Germany while I was still living in Nigeria and then Buycoins came along as a side project and then it turned into my main job.

Rob Goodman:

Yeah. And I know you have the front end developer experience, you have the design experience, so you've worked across the product development spectrum and you and I worked together on the Design Engineering Handbook from InVision which was really fun. And that was all about this intersection and this new evolution of a hybrid designer developer together. Talk to me a little bit about that intersection for you because you have both designed and built front end web experiences, now you're moving into apps as well. When you think about that cross connection and that handoff, or if it's within a single person, that mix of skills, where do you think that intersection of design and development is going next?

Ire:

Yeah, it's definitely a really interesting thing. And I think that intersection or that person that feels that intersection is becoming maybe a little less common as people specialize more. So you're either focusing on front end or focusing on design. I think it becomes a bit rarer to find someone who can fill both roles. And I think, as with everyone, you're going to have your strengths and your weaknesses or wherever you are stronger at. I personally feel like I am a bit stronger at development than I am at design, but I still can fill both roles. And I think it is really important to have someone that can do that. And just in my experience, it helps especially in a startup, and in that fast paced environment of you're trying to do new things, but you don't necessarily always have the time to go through a whole okay, we're going to do just the design.

Ire:

Sometimes you need somebody who can help accelerate that process. And I think in general it's always beneficial for everyone to have insights and understanding into every other part of the process. It's a lot harder when you have a designer who may not have any insight into how things would be built or vice versa, you have somebody that's a front end developer, but can't really understand how the design should come to life. And same goes for backend and everything, it just helps a lot if everyone has a little bit of insight into the whole assembly line.

Rob Goodman:

I'd love to get into the details of what it means to be a front end developer in cryptocurrency. This is such a new field and I'm sure people listening who are either in a leadership position or want to evolve into this space. Talk to me about what's needed specifically in the crypto world and in FinTech on the front end development side of things.

Ire:

So it's something that I am also still, I guess, learning on the job. Even myself and my co-founders working on backend and stuff, we're all just learning this crypto space as we go, because it's not like any of us really knew that much about it when we started. I guess it's more a FinTech thing, just things around how to work with numbers and how to work with security in a much deeper sense, because obviously before when I was building stuff like blogs and things, I didn't need to consider things as deeply as now when it's okay, if there's a hole, somebody can literally get away with a lot of money or something. I think just being a lot more aware around it. With crypto, this is more of a point on design.

Ire:

I think we're still in a place where I'm not sure we have the best UX for the crypto space. I think it's still very confusing and scary to a lot of people. For us at Buycoins, we really try to introduce people to crypto in a way that doesn't seem scary. But I think at the end of the day when people just start seeing random BTC, ETH and just random numbers and stuff, they tend to maybe be a bit put off.

Ire:

So I think it's a problem that we as a community still need to figure out how to solve and just the general UX around things like oh, what's a wallet? How do you really explain what a wallet is? How do you explain how to send coins between people? We do our best to do that, but I think as a whole the space is still quite early. And for myself, just seeing other people like friends and stuff, wanting to get into crypto and just questions that they have, it's clear that this is something that's still not that easy to understand, and we still need to figure out how to solve that.

Rob Goodman:

Yeah, definitely. And even those acronyms you mentioned, Bitcoin and Ethereum, they're types of cryptocurrencies, just to explain for listeners. And speaking of explaining, I'd love it if you could explain to listeners at the very fundamental, basic concept, what is cryptocurrency and what is blockchain?

Ire:

So the blockchain is essentially a ledger or a record of transactions. It's what is called decentralized. So when you hear the word decentralized, it just means that it's not centralized to one entity or one person that can say, "Okay, this transaction is accurate or not." It's something that is available publicly for anyone to access. So different cryptocurrencies have their own blockchain. So Bitcoin has its own blockchain. Ethereum has its own blockchain. So a cryptocurrency is the digital assets tied to the blockchain. And Bitcoin is the most popular one. And I don't remember how many years old it is now, maybe 11 or something, crazily short like that. And there are other currencies that are created, because at the end of the day when Bitcoin was created, it was created with certain rules baked in like okay, this is how many coins are going to exist, and it's going to increase by this amount according to these rules.

Ire:

So other people created their own cryptocurrencies because they wanted to have it work slightly differently or say, maybe they want a currency that's the price is controlled in a different way. So, for example, the price of Bitcoin is determined by however many people are willing to buy or sell it at that particular price. There isn't anything necessarily baked into the code saying that the price must be this amount. And that's why we see, particularly over the past year, that the price just goes crazily up or down, or just fluctuates a bit. But there are other cryptocurrencies where it's actually baked into the code that the price needs to be more stable, they're called stablecoins. Other coins like Ethereum just have a bit more functionality behind them. They're not just a digital asset in itself. I guess that's the high level overview of blockchain and cryptocurrency.

Rob Goodman:

And you touched on this earlier, but the idea that this gives people more power over their finances, over their currencies, what is the value of removing the power from a government or an institution over currency and putting it into the hands of people in a decentralized way to manage?

Ire:

So the main value is just the fact that no one person can control or no one entity can control what happens. So, like I mentioned, if you are in a country where the governments might, I don't know, close your bank accounts or restrict your movement of your funds and things like that, that kind of thing can't happen with crypto because no one entity can decide they want to do it in this way, or they want to change things in that way. It's just a completely transparent and public and open way of transacting with currency.

Rob Goodman:

And I'm wondering about this past year and this explosion we've seen with NFTs, which is, I think, a digital item that is for sale. It might be artwork. It might be something else. As we mentioned earlier, the Coinbase, IPO, Bitcoin value skyrocketing, do you think it's just people were in quarantine, they had more time on their hands, they weren't spending money going out. They're like, "Okay, I'm just going to play in here." Or is there something else fundamentally shifting in the economy globally that you see affecting what's happening in crypto right now?

Ire:

I mean, a lot of different reasons impact this. And because, like I mentioned, the price of Bitcoin is just controlled by what people deem it's to be worth. So that means if, for example, Elon Musk tweets Bitcoin, then obviously the price is going to go up because everyone looks at that and says, "Oh, Elon Musk is looking at Bitcoin, that means that maybe he's about to buy a bunch of something. And that would drive the price up, and just in itself, the tweets will cause the price to go up." And that's what we saw. I think that's exactly what he did and the price increased a lot, but then it dropped back down again because then people are like, "Wait, that doesn't make any sense." So that's why it goes up and down a bit. That's an example of, I guess, maybe a bit more frivolous reason that the price will increase, but we've seen things like... I think PayPal said they were going to support crypto for example.

Ire:

And that's a lot less of a frivolous reason, it's okay, we can see more and more established companies and institutions actually saying this is a legitimate currency and we want to be a part of it. And that kind of thing also will drive the price up. I guess it's like a bubble to some extent, because other people are seeing the price go up and that in itself isn't causing people to buy it more, and then that will cause the price to go up more. And it's just going up and up and up and up. I don't know where or when, or if, the bubble will burst, but I think because it's a combination of tweets and then actual positive moves, it's a bit difficult to know okay, but what is the true price of this coin? And I guess that's part of what makes it a bit fun to speculate.

Rob Goodman:

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Rob Goodman:

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Rob Goodman:

So what role do you imagine developing and coding are going to have in the years to come when it comes to cryptocurrency, FinTech startups, for those listening who are in this world, how do you see that being part of what's ahead?

Ire:

So I think there's a lot that still needs to be done in terms of developing the ecosystem around crypto, obviously with things like certain coins, there isn't that much development going into the actual coin itself, obviously, but there's just a lot surrounding it. And I think we're still at a stage where people are still figuring out how to build crypto powered applications. I think a lot of what we see is just directly interfacing with crypto and saying, "Okay, I want to buy this amount. I want to send this amount." But something that we are also really focused on at Buycoins is creating applications or products that use crypto in the background, but aren't necessarily user facing crypto apps. So a good example of this is a product we have called GetCards, which lets Nigerians buy gift cards from a bunch of different sites.

Ire:

So one problem that we have in Nigeria is that there's a lot of restrictions on the international transactions that we can do with our Nigerian debit cards. So even if you had $5,000 in your bank accounts, you might only be able to spend something like $800 a month or something before your card declines. So people trying to just do stuff like have, I don't know, Spotify account or an Apple account and stuff, they struggle a lot with that because it's a gamble, will my card work, will it not work? So we built this product that lets people just buy gift cards using naira. And behind the scenes with that, we're actually just converting it to crypto and using crypto to get the dollars or whatever we need to actually purchase the gift card. But then to the user, all they're doing is sending naira to a bank account or charging their naira debit card. But the way that we are able to make this work is by using crypto on the backend.

Rob Goodman:

We talk a lot about the idea of rapid development. At Wix we have a product called Velo, which helps developers and designers rapidly iterate on their projects and their websites. What does rapid development mean to you? And I know that early days when you were learning you would just look at other people's code and start to figure out what was happening there. But when it comes to rapid development tools, are there certain tools that you're using to build faster or programs or structures? I want to hear more of the detail of your coding world.

Ire:

We use a lot of cross platform tools. So our app is currently built using Ionic so that we can write code once and it can be on the web and iOS and Android. And we're actually launching a new app hopefully next week, which is built with more web. So it's a combination of React Native, but the core parts of the app is actually just a web app. So I think, for me personally, being a web developer, I really like doing things that are web based and can work everywhere. So, that's the kind of structure that we generally use. In terms of prototyping and stuff, we mainly use maybe Figma or Sketch when we're doing designs and InVision to put it into a prototype and stuff, but we haven't really... Or at least I haven't really done other specific prototype tools where you're building stuff within it.

Ire:

But I did find that with InVision, it really works well in terms of plugging into Sketch and you can actually build out, okay, if you click here, it goes there and you can do all of that from within Sketch. So, that was really helpful just this time trying to design the new app.

Rob Goodman:

That's awesome. So this new mobile app is actually built using web technology, but it was bespoke and custom to the mobile application build out?

Ire:

Yeah. So I'm thinking about maybe even writing about it at some point, because I feel like we actually came up with a pretty interesting solution. So the mobile application itself for the most part is just launching a web view of the web app. So we can push updates on stuff to our web. And it goes also to our mobile app. And that's one thing that was a major drawback of having mobile apps, every time we had an issue or anything we then had to go through the whole process of doing a new release, and it's just very painful and long, but with web it's you just push and then it's live in two seconds and it's amazing.

Rob Goodman:

Talking more to the startup community. What are the biggest opportunities you see in crypto and FinTech that are starting to build up in Africa, Nigeria, across the globe, that people should start thinking about in terms of business opportunities?

Ire:

Emerging markets like Africa and like Nigeria and stuff are really in need of this whole crypto startups and all of that. And, like I said, for us, we have been really focused on the infrastructure and then maybe with stuff like GetCards, we're trying to build a few crypto powered applications, but I think there's still a lot to be done. There's just so many issues with the local currencies, and we really see a future where the global currency or the currency on the continent can be essentially a cryptocurrency, even if it still is maybe backed by a fiat currency or something. So I think there's just plenty of opportunity for crypto to power a lot of what we already do and the entire financial infrastructure.

Rob Goodman:

And speaking of that future, what are the jobs of the future that you see circling around FinTech, around crypto, around this new generation of developers and designers that are going to have to be building tools that didn't even exist or weren't imagined decades ago?

Ire:

So I think, like I mentioned, the design is something that I really think will become a lot more important. I think now everyone is just trying to get into crypto in the first place. But I think that once crypto becomes a lot more commonplace, as it already is becoming too, people will really start to see the value in really fine tuning the experience so that the everyday person can get into it without feeling like oh, what exactly is this, and what's going on? So with front end development, there's also the aspect of developing Web3 apps and what these are, are apps that interact more with the blockchain. So let's say if you wanted to buy an NFT, for example, you would probably need to use one of these Web3 apps, they're called, to be able to click buy.

Ire:

Oh, you want to buy this NFT, but it's going to interact with your wallet directly and take the money from there. So there has to be that connection. So, that's going to become a lot more important as well. We see a few of that happening, but that experience in itself is also something that really needs to be improved because even in my experience, trying to build Web3 apps, I just find it incredibly frustrating. I just know that the experience isn't there and there's a lot that is not that well explained, and it's just not that great. So I think the experience part is going to be very important. On the backend, there's now a new category of blockchain developer, for example. So people who can essentially create their own currencies and build apps that actually connect and talk with a particular blockchain. So all of that is definitely going to be a lot more interesting.

Rob Goodman:

Can you explain for listeners and for me what Web3 is, and also if you can do a little bit better job than I did on explaining NFT because people have obviously been hearing about that over these past months as well?

Ire:

Yeah, sure. So I'll start with NFT. So NFT stands for non-fungible token. So fungible or fungibility is to do with the exchange value of an item. So we call regular currencies fungible because if I have one £10 bill or $10 bill and you have two £5 pound bills, we can exchange and there's no issue because they have the same value.

Ire:

Whereas something that we would call non-fungible is something that is unique in itself and has no equal exchange value. If you have a work of art, for example, you can't just swap it for another work of art because they're not the same. So it's a non-fungible item, like a piece of art, but as a token. So a cryptocurrency or just digitized essentially. I can't remember what the craze started off, because even me, I was just on Twitter and I just started realizing that every regular person is talking about NFTs and I'm like, "Why is everyone all of a sudden obsessed with this?" I think it was probably another popular person tweeted about it or something and then it just all of a sudden blew up.

Rob Goodman:

That's amazing, because you're in the world and so the fact that it came as a surprise to you is really interesting.

Ire:

Yeah. Because NFTs have been around for a while. It's not like it's a new concept. And I remember a few years ago when I was also myself just getting into the crypto space, there was this NFT called CryptoKitties that were all the rage. And I remember buying one of them for myself and I was like, "Oh, this is so cool." And I still have it in my wallet, but I've just forgotten about it. And then the next time I heard about NFTs was I guess about a couple of months ago where everybody's obsessed with it. And I'm just like, "Why?"

Rob Goodman:

So have you made any or bought any in the recent history?

Ire:

No I haven't, but my cousin that's an artist just told me she's going to put her artwork as an NFT. So I said I'll bid on it.

Rob Goodman:

And what about Web3? Can you explain that technology?

Ire:

Yes. So Web3, it's the term for this new category of web apps. So with Web1, or what people are now calling Web1, was I guess the first age of the web where websites were basically very static and it was basically just you go, you read something and then you leave it basically. And then with Web2, that's where there was more interactivity and it's stuff like Twitter where you can sign up and you can do things and you can actually alter the states of the website. So by tweeting something you're actually adding something to it. So Web3 is now this next category of web apps where it's plugged into your wallet and you can actually interact with the blockchain and make transactions and things through the website.

Ire:

So you would generally have a wallet plugged into your browsers or something. The most popular one I think is called MetaMask. And it will just be a plugin to your browser, and when you're on a Web3 enabled website and you click a button like oh, I want to buy something. Then it interacts with your wallet and then you can improve from that. So I guess it's called Web3 because it's an additional level of interaction that you can have with a website.

Rob Goodman:

I'd love to ask you about the Feminist Coalition. I know that you are one of the co-founders and I'm really interested in how that got started and how it connects perhaps to cryptocurrency and to your role with Buycoins.

Ire:

The Feminist Coalition is basically just a group of women in Nigeria that are really passionate about feminism and are just trying to make Nigeria a better place for women in general. So we started back in July or something of last year and we didn't really do that much. I mean, we did a lot of preparation and stuff, but we hadn't done anything publicly until October when there was this movement called the #EndSARS movement, which was basically just Nigerians fighting against police brutality. And we just saw an opportunity to help. And so we got involved with that. And so that was the first public thing that we did.

Ire:

But how it relates to cryptocurrency and my job at Buycoins is that we actually did fundraising using cryptocurrency mostly for some of the reasons that I discussed, but also just because we're getting a lot of people wanting to donate to us from outside of Nigeria. And it's difficult to do that if you just have a Nigerian bank account. So we saw crypto as an opportunity to do that. Obviously I'm one of the founders of a crypto company, so that's the first thing that came to my mind. So we were really successful doing that. I think the biggest thing for us was when Jack Dorsey tweeted our BTC pay link, it's a Stripe type UI to make payments in cryptocurrency.

Rob Goodman:

And where is Fem Co now? What's happening with Fem Co right now?

Ire:

So we've closed out the #EndSARS project and we've gone back to doing more of the projects that we were initially founded to do. So more focused on women. So in December we did a food drive because food inflation, particularly around that Christmas time gets really bad. So we did a drive for about 1,000 women, I think it was just in Lagos. And then we're now working on other projects like that.

Rob Goodman:

Amazing. Ire, it was such a joy to talk to you. Thanks so much for your time and for everything you're doing in your part of the world and to also open up cryptocurrency and financial opportunity everywhere. This has been great.

Ire:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This was really great.

Rob Goodman:

Thanks so much for listening and big thanks to Ire for sharing her story and insights with us. Some of the standout moments from this episode to me are when Ire spoke about the value of designers understanding developers and developers understanding designers in a way that makes the whole process smoother by there being this shared knowledge of how all the parts of the product development machine work together. Oh, and if you're interested in hearing Ire talk more about designer developer relationships, check her out in InVision's Design Engineering Handbook too. I also really appreciated how she talked about the value of better user experience in order for more people to see the value in and make use of cryptocurrency. With all the frenzy around crypto, there's this major opportunity for designers and developers to level up the experience and make it more accessible to more and more everyday people. You can learn more about Ire at ireaderinokun.com. That's I-R-E, A-D-E-R-I-N-O-K-U-N.com and check out Buycoins at buycoins.africa. Ire is also an active blogger and has tons of great articles, advice and insights on Medium.

Rob Goodman:

Thanks so much for listening. This is Now What? By Wix, the podcast about how technology is changing everything. Now What? Is hosted and produced by me, Rob Goodman, executive producer for content at Wix, audio engineering and editing is by Brian Pake at Pacific Audio. Music is composed and performed by Kimo Muraki. Our executive producers from Wix are Susan Kaplow, Shani Moore, Omer Shai, and me, Rob Goodman. You can discover more about the show and our guests at wix.com/nowwhat. Be sure to subscribe and follow the show for new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and share this show with your friends and colleagues. We'll see you soon.