Plaid’s Adekunle Oduye on Design Systems of Tomorrow

Adekunle Oduye:

When you think about design systems, every company's design system is different. First, you want to build a design system that's going to solve those people's needs, and then hopefully create a process that allows them to build a better product. At the foundation, it always starts with the people, understanding their needs, their wants and their goals.

Rob Goodman:

Hi, everyone. And welcome to Now What?, the podcast from Wix about how technology is changing…everything. I'm your host, Rob Goodman, and in this series, we're talking all about evolution in business, design, development and beyond. In this new season of the show, we're diving into customer experience. As the world has rapidly transformed, customers' expectations, behavior and needs have adapted with it. Paired with the emergence of new forms of social media, digital currency, the metaverse and so much more, navigating what this means for you and your organization can be a lot. So we're bringing you fresh interviews and new insights from leaders that are reshaping business today to better prepare you for what's ahead.

Rob Goodman:

In this episode, I'm speaking with Adekunle Oduye about the intersection of design and code and the future of design systems. Adekunle is a Design Engineer at the fintech company Plaid, where he's building Threads, Plaid's official design system. He previously built products for NASDAQ, Memorial Sloan Kettering and Mailchimp. Outside of work, he's an active mentor and coach for the next generation of product designers and front-end developers. Adekunle and I go deep into the world of design systems, talk about the hybrid role of the design engineer, share lessons for any leader working across disciplines and discuss the power of prototyping in taking the guesswork out of big decisions. You're in for a great conversation with my friend, Adekunle Oduye. So, let's get started. Adekunle, welcome to the Now What? podcast, so great to have you here.

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Rob Goodman:

So, let's kick it off. I want to hear about your newish role at Plaid and what you're doing there.

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, for sure. So, I actually started at Plaid a couple of months ago, and my role is as a design engineer so I'll be mostly working on design systems. And this is kind of a new role within Plaid itself so I'm going to be doing a lot of new stuff around front-end architecture, prototyping and whatnot.

Rob Goodman:

And for listeners who aren't familiar, what is Plaid? My way of explaining it is it's this kind of connective tissue between financial institutions to make customers' lives easier. How would you describe what Plaid is up to?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, I would kind of describe it as like a middle man for applications, being able to communicate with your banking APIs, so kind of thinking of it as like each bank has a different language. And you have a financial app like Venmo which wants to be able to connect to as many banks as possible. They need someone to be able to translate that for them. So, Plaid is kind of that middle layer where it'll allow anyone to be able to connect to multiple bank accounts. So, if I have a Bank America account, Chase, Wells Fargo, I'm able to use Plaid to be able to do all those connections rather than connecting to each of the actual banking institutions one by one.

Rob Goodman:

And for folks who aren't familiar with the idea of a design engineer, I mean, I feel like nowadays there's so many roles that are hybrid, right? There are bridges between teams to help products develop better, to help collaboration go smoother. And you and I worked together on the Design Engineering Handbook when I was at InVision and you wrote part of that book which was so much fun to work on. And in that book, you so artfully explain what a design engineer is and how it's both a technical expertise but also focused on relationships and collaboration and how to communicate within a team and within a company to make these processes better. How would you describe what is a design engineer?

Adekunle Oduye:

The short answer would be: it's a designer who is comfortable with code or an engineer that's comfortable with design. And the idea is that they're basically able to communicate with both sides effectively. So, the idea is that I, as a designer or design engineer, I'm able to work with both engineers and designers and be able to communicate in terms that they'll understand.

Rob Goodman:

And how did design systems play into the work and the role of design engineering?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah. So, I would say that design engineers have like three main focuses. So, the first one is design systems. So, kind of the idea of like, "I'm building products. I use a design system to be able to build performance, scalable features and whatnot." The second is around prototyping. So, I as a design engineer might help a team or take an idea from concept to completion. And then, the third would be around tooling. So, this is like, "How can I build tools that will basically enhance the design and developer experience?"

Rob Goodman:

And going back to Plaid, how does Plaid make the customer experience better, both for customers that are using financial apps and also for the institutions themselves that are connecting in order to create these better experiences?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, it works in multiple ways. But for the institutions, they're able to connect to many different applications without creating their own API. They might have their own API, but they will probably use Plaid as a way to make it easier for end users to be able to get access to their data and whatnot. And from the side of like financial applications, rather than connecting to all these different banks, because the idea is that they all have their own way of doing things, all they have to do is use Plaid and they have access to over 10,000 institutions. So, it's a win-win situation looking from both a financial-application side and also a financial-institution side.

Rob Goodman:

And diving into design engineering and design systems, I want to break down how this kind of work helps your internal stakeholders, like your internal customers, right, the people that you're working with, the folks that are leading product, and then how it actually helps with the product in terms of supporting the financial institutions and also end customers. How does that work?

Adekunle Oduye:

So, I always break it down to the case of a design system has basically two sets of users. So we have our direct users, which is like our colleagues, and we have our end users, which is people that use the products every day. So, how I approach it is I want to always understand the end users' pain points and what they want the experience to be. And then basically reverse engineer everything back. So, all right, we know that we want this color system to work properly for end users. Okay, how can designers and engineers be able to build world-class UI without actually having to worry about the nitty gritty stuff? That's how I always take account of it. It's like, first thinking about the UX, so the end users, and then thinking about the design experience, then think about the developer experience and figure out how can I bridge that gap?

Rob Goodman:

And once those products hit end consumers, how does it show up? Like how does that work of design systems show up in the experience for customers? Is it that things move more seamlessly? Is that the experience is more unified? Like what's the invisible work that's happening that ultimately is going to give customers that magical experience?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah. I would say that it's invisible in the case of if you're not having any problems with the actual UI or the experience. It's working. And I would add that the second thing is that we might have a feature that we want to take to market within like three months. That's another byproduct of it because our direct users are able to kind of build more quickly by using the design system and making sure that both the UI is scalable, performant and accessible.

Rob Goodman:

And people have been talking about design systems now for years. I want to look into the future with you. What do you think the next evolution of design systems is? And how's that going to affect both the end users but also the designers and developers that are working within tech companies?

Adekunle Oduye:

The first thing I could think of is how design systems can influence VR and AR because everyone's talking about the metaverse and all this other stuff. And we probably have to start thinking about how is the design going to scale from a 3D standpoint? And if you think about it, once you have 3D, that's going to bring a lot more problems, but also opportunities that we can solve from more of a holistic level. So that's the one thing I would think of like the evolution of design system and how we can support those initiatives.

Rob Goodman:

And let's talk about the jobs of the future with design engineering and design systems. What do you envision three, five years from now are going to be these new roles that are going to be at these intersections of design and development and also systems thinking?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, great question. Someone pointed out that there are going to be more roles around design tokens. So for those who don't know design tokens, it's basically key value pairing of everything within the design system. So this could be colors, fonts and anything else. So I've heard that they're coming up with roles around design system token engineer, which is a mouthful, but it's someone that's going to be managing that or architecture of that.

Adekunle Oduye:

And I think there's probably going to be more in a case of the idea of a design engineer, but more focused on motion because I think any other product, motion is a good way to enhance the experience. And it's kind of hard to scale. And I think it's probably going to be more of a thing, especially when you get into like the 3D world, because I think that's how you could make more of a realistic experience. If you think about it, especially with companies like Google and Amazon, they probably have a bunch of products and they're definitely stepping into VR and they have to figure out how can we scale design to a point where they don't have to start from scratch all the time. And that's definitely going to be a case for around design tokens, but also around motion as we step into the virtual world.

Rob Goodman:

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Rob Goodman:

And you're doing your work every day and you're building and you're prototyping, but there's another side of the design engineer world that is around education, around communicating, around learning for your organization, for your teams, and communicating and sharing to non-technical folks what this work does. How do you go about educating teams and inviting more people into the process through that education?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, so I've done it multiple ways, but I think the best way to do it is to first showcase the process as much as possible. So even if I'm creating a prototype or I'm creating some sort of component, I showcase the product to everyone. And it doesn't matter if it's still a work in progress or if it's finished, I think just sharing the process will allow people to understand what a design engineer is and what does it entail because it's just not just like building stuff. It's just kind of the idea of asking questions, figuring out how to abstract things out and whatnot. The second thing I would mention is around prototyping because I feel like a lot of times people always have discussions about, "Hey, what solution is the best solution?" And I'm more of the case of prototyping all the solutions out and figure out what is the best one.

Adekunle Oduye:

It's more results-driven rather than saying, like, "Oh, we think" or "We believe." I'm more of a case where I like to prototype things out, show it to users, get feedback and then allow the data to figure out how we want to proceed. The third thing I would say is that you're able to kind of communicate with folks. The best way I could explain this is like explaining technical aspects to non-technical folks. And I always use references that people are always familiar with. So I use restaurants or recipes and whatnot to be able to kind of communicate that because again, if I start talking very technical, I'm probably going to lose half the room. So that's kind of how I like to approach it where it's like you showcase a lot of the stuff, but also communicate in a way where everyone could understand what you're doing and the benefits.

Rob Goodman:

And for listeners out there who are maybe they're working in design or development, or maybe they're even working in a different capacity, do those tenets apply, do you think, to other ways of communicating and building bridges with teams, this idea of what I heard you say is showing, right, showing the actual process, bringing in data so that it's not just like you said thinking and feeling, but it's actually, hey, this is what we're seeing. And then creating relatable examples for people that's not in your specific wheelhouse, but it's something that's more broadly understandable. Does that sound like something that can apply to all kinds of people in different roles?

Adekunle Oduye:

I think so. I always try to craft examples or conversations based on who I'm talking to. So if I'm talking to designers, I try to figure out what example can I use from the design world to better illustrate this technical aspect, or the same thing with content folks. If it's something that's super technical, how can I bring it into their world? So I think it's kind of like with anything where you first understand your user and then figure out how and what is the best way to communicate to folks. And again, everyone's going to be different and, or even like every discipline is going to have a different way of communicating. So I want to make sure to be able to make it as simple as possible so that even if I brought my mother or sister and explained stuff to them, they could understand it.

Rob Goodman:

Yeah. I love that. And I love the idea that knowing the user is both about the people that are using the product, but it's also your colleagues that need to use the things that you are building or working on or need to be your partner in creating these experiences. And I think that's such a key unlock, right? You have to know your collaborators and speak in terms that's going to resonate with them to bring them in the fold.

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, exactly. That's why when you think about design systems, every company's design system is different. First, you want to build a design system that's going to solve those people's needs and then hopefully create a process that allows them to build a better product. So I think at the foundation it always starts with the people, understanding their needs, their wants and their goals.

Rob Goodman:

Are there any other best practices that you think really work well for creating these cross-company bonds that'll ultimately make the work environment better and also make the products better?

Adekunle Oduye:

I would say the first thing is that you have to be sort of a salesperson, and I know salesperson is like a dirty word in the tech world, but that's kind of the idea. Like you're trying to sell yourself, but you're also trying to sell ideas. I think one of the great qualities that I've learned, especially growing up in New York, is you always want to try to sell yourself and be able to kind of showcase the value.

Adekunle Oduye:

I take the same thing to the work where it's like, whatever I do, I'm selling something. So I first have to think about it like, all right, I know I want to do X. What is the benefit of X? This could be a component. This could be a tooling. From doing that, I could upsell my colleagues, but I think more importantly, once it gets to the higher ups and they ask like, "Why do you want to do this?" you can have that question of why I'm doing this. Like it's going to bring in more money or it's going to make the experience better, which is also going to bring in more money. So that's the first thing I would say.

Adekunle Oduye:

The second thing I would say is that you want to be good at documentation because the idea of any of this is like, it's a product. And I kind of compare it to IKEA furniture. So if I get IKEA furniture but there's no instructions, then the experience is not going to be good because I have to figure out how this stuff is going to work. So anytime you're creating any sort of tooling or product, making sure that you have clear and concise documentation, again, this is something that you could work with a content person. But I always tell people that you want to be good at writing documentation because you're not going to always have that content person to be able to craft your documentation that makes it sound good. So I would say those two things.

Rob Goodman:

And I want to ask you over these past months and years, has there been a daily or weekly habit of yours that's really helped either in your personal life or in business that you want to share with us?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, it actually hit me when I was first getting into design engineering. I was actually doing a lot of context switching when I was going from design to code and code to design and I was burning myself out. So I realized that I was doing that because I didn't really have a plan for the day. So what I've been doing, and also it got enhanced during COVID, was to be able to create a weekly list but also a daily list. And I always have three things and especially workwise that I have to do in order for my day to be successful. And if I'm not doing that, then something went wrong or I probably got distracted. And these could be very simple things, but I think coming up with a plan before you start working is always good because again, there's a lot of distractions and especially when I was in the office, I was getting distracted by the free food and people and whatnot. So having a plan and referencing it during the afternoon but also before I leave is always a good best practice to have.

Rob Goodman:

Do you do that in the morning? Do you do that the night before?

Adekunle Oduye:

So I actually do it the night before, and then I review it first thing in the morning before I look at my phone, because I think when I look at my phone, I start to get distracted. So I usually get up, use the bathroom, and kind of like review my lists. And then internally I'm kind of stating my expectations where it's like "All right, these are like my to-do lists." And if anything comes up, I know that I can't really focus on this because I have these three things I have to accomplish. And sometimes I have post-it notes on my monitor because I do get distracted sometimes. So those are some of the ways I try to stay on top of things, especially now where I have like a million things that's going on in my life. So it helps me kind of stay aligned.

Rob Goodman:

Last question I want to ask you, what is the last purchase or financial thing that you did on Plaid?

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah, so I think it was actually this weekend. I went to get a massage, and interesting enough, the massage parlor doesn't take cash. So they were like, "Oh, you have to Venmo the money." So one of the partners of Venmo is Plaid. So that was kind of interesting because I think a lot of stores are moving into that cashless way of doing things. So yeah.

Rob Goodman:

Awesome. All right. And one last, last question. What was the last thing you prototyped? It could be in your life, which would be fun, or it could be at work. The last thing you put together to kind of test a concept.

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah. So this might be weird, but I was actually wanting to get to more hardware stuff. So I wanted to prototype a stirrer. So one problem I have is that I used to drink a lot of smoothies, or I still drink a lot of smoothies. And if you don't stir it constantly, then all the solids get like float to the top. So it's something that bugs me, and I was like, all right, I kind of sketched the idea of how it would work. Where something mechanical is kind of going back and forth while I set it down so that it's always ready to be drunk. That's still a work in progress because I'm not a hardware person, but I'm willing to learn some new things. But that's the last thing I actually like prototyped.

Rob Goodman:

I love it. Adekunle, thank you so much for joining the Now What? podcast. It's been a joy to chat with you, and really appreciate everything you shared today.

Adekunle Oduye:

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Rob Goodman:

What a great conversation with Adekunle Oduye. There were some excellent takeaways for me from this episode, and I wanted to call a few of them out. The first is around prototyping. By taking the approach of a design engineer and bringing that into whatever discipline you're working in, you can bring clarity to a project and to a big decision. It doesn't need to be guesswork, gut feelings, or data based on something similar but not quite right. Make it, test it, evolve it then ship it. The next is knowing your audience. I really enjoyed hearing Adekunle discuss the way he approaches building design systems and really all of his work in a way that naturally creates bridges with the other colleagues and teams he's collaborating with. And he does this by speaking in their business language, removing the hurdles that might come from technical jargon and instead putting it in terms that others will understand.

Rob Goodman:

And third, I really loved hearing from him about the idea of selling, to always be selling something to someone. And that's not a bad thing. It just means you have to understand what motivates your counterparts and your higher ups so you can position what will be best for your customers or products in a way that will land for them.

Rob Goodman:

If you're interested in learning more about Adekunle, check adekunleoduye.com. That's A-D-E-K-U-N-L-E-O-D-U-Y-E.com. And learn more about Plaid at Plaid.com. We'll also link to topics we discussed, articles, the design engineering handbook and more from this episode in our show notes at wix.com/nowwhat.

Rob Goodman:

This is Now What? by Wix, the podcast about how technology is changing…everything. Be sure to subscribe and follow the show wherever you're listening to get new episodes first, and please rate, review and share this show with your friends and colleagues too. Now What? podcast is produced and hosted by me, Rob Goodman, Executive Producer for Content at Wix. Audio engineering and editing is by Brian Pake at Pacific Audio. Music is composed and performed by Kimo Muraki. Executive Producers from Wix are Susan Kaplow and me, Rob Goodman. You can learn more at wix.com/nowwhat. We'll see you soon.