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Don’t gloss over the basics, they yield much SEO power! What SEO basics are you overlooking? What SEO fundamentals can have a huge impact? Can overcomplicating SEO hurt your performance? Wix’s Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter get into easy ways to add additional value to your pages with the often overlooked fundamentals of SEO. SEO Consultant extraordinaire Joshua George chimes in on why the biggest SEO hack is that there IS NO hack… there’s no need to overcomplicate your SEO. Plus, we share some real-life scenarios where handling fundamentals heavily changed SEO performance. Don’t get in over your head; we dive down to the basics on how to achieve fundamentally sound pages on this week's episode of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast! Back Behold! The power of SEO fundamentals Don’t gloss over the basics, they yield much SEO power! What SEO basics are you overlooking? What SEO fundamentals can have a huge impact? Can overcomplicating SEO hurt your performance? Wix’s Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter get into easy ways to add additional value to your pages with the often overlooked fundamentals of SEO. SEO Consultant extraordinaire Joshua George chimes in on why the biggest SEO hack is that there IS NO hack… there’s no need to overcomplicate your SEO. Plus, we share some real-life scenarios where handling fundamentals heavily changed SEO performance. Don’t get in over your head; we dive down to the basics on how to achieve fundamentally sound pages on this week's episode of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast! Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 54 | September 6, 2023 | 32 MIN 00:00 / 32:09 This week’s guests Joshua George Joshua is the founder of ClickSlice, a results driven SEO agency in London. He has almost a decade of experience as an SEO consultant and has provided SEO training for the British government. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's a new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, mahalo for joining the Surf's Up podcast where we've got some groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the Head of SEO Branding at Wix joined by the amazing, fantastic, the incredible, the bonafide SEO expert guru person, our head of SEO communications, Crystal Carter, guru. Crystal Carter: I did go on TikTok at some point and say I was, I'm an SEO expert, which I think is always such a strange term because SEO is changing all the time and so sometimes I feel like I know things and sometimes I feel like a complete newb, but I think that that's one of the beauties of the industry personally. Mordy Oberstein: I kind of feel like when someone writes Guru, I always think of Goro from Mortal Kombat. I'm an SEO Goro and I think of them having six arms and fighting other players. Crystal Carter: Was that Jocelyn? Mordy Oberstein: No, no, no. That's Goro. Mortal Kombat. Crystal Carter: I'm thinking Street Fighter. Mordy Oberstein: You're thinking of Street Fighter. Crystal Carter: I'm thinking of Street Fighter. Mordy Oberstein: Very similar. Crystal Carter: Very similar. I was much better as Street Fighter though. I was a big fan of E. Honda because he was really good. I'm a bit of a one move Barry and E. Honda has a big arm. I'd just be like, wall of arm, just eat this fist. Mordy Oberstein: I was a Vega person in Street Fighter and a Scorpion person in Mortal Kombat and I was terrible at both. The SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix where you can not only subscribe to our monthly SEO newsletter, searchlight over wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but where you can optimize all your metadata just the way you want to. Oh, but Mordy, metatags, that's so fundamental, but behold the power of SEO fundamentals. Yep. We're talking about the unexpected power of getting the SEO basics right. Sometimes little SEO things can do big SEO things or all big SEO things are built on the shoulders of smaller SEO things or getting the basics right says a lot about your site to search engines and to prove it all Joshua George chimes in with how focusing on the SEO fundamentals has actually paid off in real scenarios. Since we're talking about fundamentals, we'll share some sites and scenarios with you, who are handling the basics right and how that changed the course of their SEO performance and of course we have the snap piece of SEO news for you and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness, so buckle up because even though those Deloreans aren't going back in time, it is going back to basics. It's episode number 54 of the SERP's Up podcast. I want to hop in a DeLorean and go back to basics. 88 miles per hour Marty, 88 miles per hour. Crystal Carter: Wait, we need another flux capacitor or something. I feel like that will help us to do that. Mordy Oberstein: I recently rescheduled a meeting with somebody and I put it back to the previous week instead of ahead to the previous week and they're like oh, Mordy, I think you scheduled for last week. I'm like, 88 miles per hour. Flux capacitors, DeLoreans and time machines aside, if you're new to SEO and you see all sorts of SEO scoff at the basics of SEO, ignore that because if you've been in SEO for a long time, then you should know how impactful some of the most basic SEO tasks can be and why you shouldn't ignore them or gloss over them for the fancier shinier SEO things. I've had so many cases where nailing down things like basic pay structure, help pay to stay in the index or changing a title tag, made a ranking difference. They might seem like small things, but their impact can be big. Leaving all that aside, you never know what will make the difference. Let me just harp on that for a second. You never really do know what will actually make the difference and Glenn Davis talked about where you throw the kitchen sink at it because you never know what's going to pay off and what's actually going to make the difference between you ranking versus a competitor ranking. As much as SEOs may not want to omit it, sometimes it actually is a crapshoot. You want to be one of the three to five pages, let's say, in the world, who rank for a keyword. A top three or top five, let's say top three. Three pages in the whole world who rank in those positions. That can kind of be a crapshoot sometimes and you never know what's actually going to pay off for you, what's actually going to be the needle mover. More than that, getting the fundamentals right is being aligned with best practices and that is a statement to users, it's a statement to your potential clients and consumers and it is a statement to search engines that you understand what it means to create healthy web content, healthy functioning web content on the web and that's seriously important. Whether it's tweaking an H1 or H2 or formatting a text into a table or a list or update a title tag or adding all text to an image or even adding a caption, don't underestimate the power behind those simple SEO actions and if anyone tells you otherwise, you send them to me. Mic drop. End broadcast. Crystal Carter: I mean, I agree. This goes back to something my mom always said, which was, common sense ain't that common. I think that people will scoff at the basics like, oh, we did some internal linking, we did some this and it's tricky because the clients they were like, "I heard about this and I heard about that and I want to do this and I want to do that" and we're like, but you haven't done title tax, you haven't done your H1s. You haven't added any pictures to this. You have a wall of text my friend. Clients will be like, "I wanted to do something super exciting." It's like, you'll get that stuff after you do the basic stuff and I think that it's something that as an SEO, you have to hold your nerve and go, yeah, we're going to do this. It's going to be a little bit boring for a minute. Hang in there because we'll see some good results. I think again because it's not super exciting, like I said, common sense ain't that common. A lot of people ain't doing it, so a lot of people aren't hitting their basic SEO things. A lot of people aren't hitting those things. If you are covering those bases then you are going to see some benefit because you are going to be doing more than most people are doing because most people are cutting corners. Most people are trying to jump the queue and if you are actually covering those bases, then it's really, really important. It's like, you have to learn- Mordy Oberstein: You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. Crystal Carter: Everybody wants to be Michael Jordan or whatever, but Michael Jordan spent a lot of time doing layups, doing regular layups just like everybody else and there's going to be a lot of people... If you look at great musicians, they spend a lot of time practicing scales over and over and over and over and over again. You'll see people, I think I've seen footage of Jimi Hendrix or whatever, just practicing scales for hours, just always with a guitar in his hand practicing scales. Scales might seem basic. You're like, I've learned how to do scales. It's like, do it again. Do it again. I think with the basics, not only is it just to hit it the first time, but also to just go back over it and make sure that people aren't slipping, that your team isn't slipping on those things because it might be that you trained up everybody on the basic things and then maybe you got some new folks or maybe you go to new CMS or maybe you got other things that came through that have changed how you approach things and it's really easy to slack on some of the things that seem core, but they're core for a reason because they're effective. Mordy Oberstein: So many times I've seen a well optimized page, but the headers are just not explicit and it's not good for readers either when it happens, by the way. Half of these things are beneficial for SEO, also beneficial for users and they're really simple and really ignored. I've had a case where on a podcast website that I have, where a bunch of my pages weren't indexed. I'm like, you know what? The headers are not very explicit. I wrote this months ago. I don't know what I'm talking about here. Let me go back and let me change that and it's a basic thing and now the pages are indexed. Going back to the music example or going back to the Michael Jordan, there'd be no Michael Jordan if there wasn't a Dr. J. Right? Things build upon themselves. You don't just have a Michael Jordan. You have an entire history of basketball that leads to a Michael Jordan and a history of basketball because everything afterwards doesn't matter, but leaving that aside, that's a hot take. Music is the same thing, right? You don't have a Nirvana, unless you have a Buddy Holly. Those things don't happen. The same thing with your website. If you're not getting the basic structure of your pages down, the basic format of your pages down, the basic elements of your pages down, even the basic content that you need on your website, an about page or whatever it is. You're not going to be able to do things like advanced keyword content clusters. That's not happening. Crystal Carter: Right. Precisely. I saw this thing and it really stuck with me. It was just a little thing on TikTok and they were saying, I'm high maintenance so I can be low maintenance. It's like, you spend loads of time on your keyword research. You spend a lot of time on your keyword research. You spend a lot of time on your site architecture. You spend a lot of time making sure that your URLs are optimized, that you got title tags, meta descriptions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All your H1s, your H2s... Crystal Carter: ... descriptions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All your H1s or H2s et cetera, really hitting the marks on those. You spend a lot of time on that so that you just need to tweak a little bit as you go forward. You spend a lot of time on the fundamentals. You spend a lot of time on the things that will set you up for success down the line. So for instance, in the Wix SEO tools, we have the SEO settings that allows you to set the syntax for lots of parts of some of your SEO tags and even your structured data and things like that. Spending the time, making sure that that works, making sure that that's good for you, that you've covered those bases, will allow you to grow and it will allow you to grow quickly if you need to, because you will have the syntax set up for all of that sort of stuff going forward. People are like, "Oh, I don't want to do the SEO set of checklists." I'm like, "But you should, because it covers lots of things that it's really easy to forget, and it's a checklist that covers this, this, this, this, and this." And people are like, "Oh, it's really simple." I'm like, "Is it? Because not everybody's- Mordy Oberstein: You gloss over it all the time. Crystal Carter: People gloss over it, and there's lots of times where people just don't do the things, and you should do them because it will help you. It will fundamentally help you. Mordy Oberstein: Same thing with, let's say a blog post. We have the SEO Assistant. It helps you optimize title tag, header, body, whatever. The basic SEO task you should be doing for a blog post. And I'll tell you something, there's been many, many times where you optimize a title tag or the headers or whatever foundational element that we're talking about, and you see us say a ranking boost. So Google sees you a little bit more relevant for a certain keyword and you're like, "You know what?" Let's take a title tag. Let's go with a particular example. I wrote a good title tag. I see there's a ranking for whatever, whatever I see that I'm also ranking for, say, another ancillary keyword. Maybe now refine my title tag to try to target that secondary keyword at the same time. And I go up from, let's say, 20 to 10. Now I say, "You know what? Now I can refine that. I can refine the headers. I can refine all these small things," and now I've gone from 10 to eight. You can't get to that point of refining and refining it, refining it from zero to 60 in three seconds. I've literally done this a gazillion times. It's months. I create the title tag, I have the headers, I have this. I see that there's room for improvement. I tweak. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: I see this data says something different now. Great. I tweak again. Crystal Carter: I had a client who was doing e-commerce stuff and they had the same H1. My favorite thing is when you do an audit on a site, and particularly the blog post and the H1 will be unique, and the H2 will be, "Read these related blogs," or something, and you're just like, "That's not-" Mordy Oberstein: Stacks? Crystal Carter: Right. No, it'll just be the thing that's the recommended box. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, I got you. All the way at the bottom of the page, H2 articles. Crystal Carter: Yeah, exactly. And if I see that, I'm just like, "Y'all need H2. You'll need H2." And the thing is, people are like, "oh, does that really matter?" I'm like, "Yes." I've done it a million times where you add that in. And what it is it's giving Google priority. It's giving Google information about the priority of the page, and it's telling them which things are important. It's giving them more context to what is on your page, and it is important. And I know that it's maybe takes a little bit of time, but it's super important and really valuable. Mordy Oberstein: There's no way in my mind... Imagine you had a scenario like that. You have a hundred blog posts, and the H1 is great. The content, everything is great. The title tag, everything is great. And the H2 in all of them, the second H2 is related articles. There's no way in my mind that Google looks at that website and says, "In terms of quality and helpfulness, this site gets a great score." Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: Because those basic things mean that you are dealing with your site in a quality way. Crystal Carter: Right. If you go to a hotel or something like that, everyone's going to have towels, for instance. Mordy Oberstein: I love towels. They're always itchy and scratchy though with the- Crystal Carter: I love hotel towels. I just love- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, they're stiff. No. Crystal Carter: No, they're my favorite. I love them. They've just been bleached. I just love it. I just love them. Anyway, so everybody's got towels, and that's basic. Mordy Oberstein: Wait, have you ever stolen a towel before from a hotel? Crystal Carter: No, I've never done that. I'm a good person. Mordy Oberstein: They once asked Yogi Berra, "Do you ever stay at a fine hotel on the road?" Yogi was a baseball player in the 1950s. And he said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. We once stayed at this fancy hotel in Chicago. It was great. There was only one problem." They said, "Oh, what, Yogi?" He's like, "The towels were so thick." "What's the problem with that, Yogi?" "I couldn't close the suitcase." Sorry. But a great story, right? Crystal Carter: That's a great story. So yeah, so every place is going to have a towel or every hotel is going to have a towel, and you expect that. And there's ways that you can add care to that experience. You can be like, "Oh, well, we also have some lovely soaps to go with it," or, "We also have a bathrobe or something to go with that experience as well." And you're like, "Oh, okay, so this is somebody who's more than just the normal thing," but you expect every hotel to have towels. Mordy Oberstein: Imagine they only had a bathrobe and they had no towel. Crystal Carter: What? Exactly. Mordy Oberstein: I'm out of here. Crystal Carter: What is this? Mordy Oberstein: There's a mint on the pillow, but there's no blanket. Crystal Carter: But there's no towel? What am I doing here? So it's very important, but these are signals, and you see these signals when you're in a nice restaurant, there are signals. They'll have cloth tablecloths and you're like, "Oh, okay, this is a nice restaurant," as opposed to one where people eat out of buckets. Mordy Oberstein: Wendy's. Crystal Carter: I like Wendy's, but whatever. Anyway, I'm just saying there are signs, there are signals that you give. And similarly, Google will see signals that somebody spent some time on this content and somebody has invested time making this content good and it doesn't need to cost the earth. Making H1s and H2s doesn't cost a lot of money. Fixing your links so that you don't have a bunch of redirects all over your page, a broken link so that you don't have pages that have no links on them. One of my bugbears is when I'm reading content and they're like, "Oh, there's this great thing. It's so great. You should learn really about..." And there's no link. And I'm like, "Where's the link? Where's the link? You're telling me all about it. I want to see it. Where's the link?" So, those sorts of things don't cost a lot of money. You don't need an extra tool to do that. You can just get in there and you can update that stuff, but it shows care. So even if we're talking about the fancy restaurant, for instance, they're the people who have beautiful silverware and fancy table settings and all of that sort of stuff. And maybe you're a smaller restaurant or whatever, and maybe you do have little baskets and stuff like that, but there's ways that you can show care with it. There's ways that you can show care and ways that you can add value. You might have a really nice playlist or maybe you made the things by hand. Maybe they're homemade things, maybe they're whatever, but use the tools that you have to make the most out of what you have. Mordy Oberstein: It'd be like serving a great dish at a restaurant with no cutlery. Where's the spoon? You don't want to put out a great dish without the cutlery. And speaking of people who put out great dishes and also put out the cutlery, let's talk to Joshua George about how focusing on the SEO fundamentals has actually paid off for him. Joshua George: Hey, so I'm a big believer of focusing on the SEO fundamentals and really not trying to over-complicate things. It's quite interesting because whenever you speak to someone who is new in the SEO space, they always have this false misconception that to rank number one on Google, you need to be doing some SEO mystery tactics behind the scenes, or there must be some sort of SEO hack that no one speaks about in public. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the biggest SEO hack is that there is no SEO hack. And the sooner you understand that and focus on the core SEO fundamentals, the sooner you're going to rank your website and rank your client sites too. I'm a big believer of fancy fails and simple scales, and if you take it one step back and just look at what is Google's core goal when it comes to Google search, well, Google's goal is to return the best search results to the users so the users are happy with what they see, and come back and use Google again in the future. If you focus on the fundamentals, which is increasing your site's relevancy and increasing your site's authority, you are going to rank number one. To increase your relevancy, you need to publish as many publicly relevant blogs on your website as possible. For example, if you are a plumber, then you should be publishing blogs on your website, such as the pros and cons of hiring a plumber, how much does a plumber charge? The evolution of the plumbing industry. All things to do with the service you offer plumbing. That's how you increase your relevancy. You increase your authority by acquiring high quality backlinks. We follow these two processes on ClickSlice, and ClickSlice actually ranks number one for the keyword, "SEO agency London," and we also ranked number one for, "SEO consultant London." There were two very, very, very competitive terms, and we've done it by focusing on the core SSEO fundamentals and not overcomplicating things. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Joshua. It's a great point. You don't want to overcomplicate SEO when you don't have to overcomplicate SEO. You don't win a medal for overcomplicating SEO for the sake of overcomplicating SEO. Now make sure you give Joshua follow over on Twitter at _Josh- Mordy Oberstein: Now, make sure you give Joshua follow over on Twitter at _JoshuaSEO. That's under J-O-S-H-U-A, SEO over on Twitter. Super valuable follow. Super nice guy. Actually, really, really appreciate Joshua, and thank you again for sharing your insights with us. And again, we'll link to Joshua's Twitter bio in the show notes. Now, let's put our money where our mouths are and have a look at some real cases where getting the basics right does actually, or did actually have an impact as we justify the focus on fundamentals by going to the top of the SERP. So what I did here is I basically crowdsourced. I'm like, hey y'all, I have my own example as well, but hey, y'all give me some cases where you did some basic thing that was not shiny or sexy at all, but it paid off big for you. And I got a flood of responses. But let's start off, Crystal, with one that we actually worked on together with Fox Fudge. They're a great Wix website. They sell fudge online. It looks delicious. I will not lie to you, it looks fabulous. So check out foxfudge.com, little plug for them. They go to a lot of local events and they sell their fudge at these local events as well as they should. And one of the things that we noticed was, "Hey, wait a second. In many cases or some cases, they're actually outranking the event itself." Because what they do on the Fox Fudge website at the direction of Crystal, if I'm not mistaken, was... And by the way, big shout out to James Core, great Wix partner designing their website. Fabulous guy. So big shout out to him and the all work he's doing with Fox Fudge. But what they're doing is they're putting in the title tag, the name of the event. So for example, the keyword 2023 hot town summer salute, Fox Fudge is ranking over basically everything but the Facebook page for the event itself because it's in the title tag. Crystal Carter: Right, they're adding in that information. And this is a prime example as well. Again, high maintenance, so you can be low maintenance. This particular page is also using a Wix event page, which has a lot of technical things built into it. So for instance, it's also got the event schema built into it. And this is something that you can think about when you're thinking about which basics you need to cover, is that if you have a lot of bases that are covered within your CMS, within your build and things like that, then you can add onto them really simply, really simply, really easily, and it will make sure that it looks good. For instance, if you got a really good lead on a place where you can get potato salads and whenever there's a potluck or something like that, you can go and purchase your potato salad from your favorite delicatessen, and then you just need to put a little bit of parsley on top and you can showcase to all your friends about how great you're doing. So they're able to get some of these great things by doing some of these seemingly basic implementation on their side because they got a good technical foundation from the Wix product. And I think that that's something that you should also think about when you're thinking about where you can get the most impact from fairly simple, fairly straightforward SEO activity. Mordy Oberstein: So let's run through a bunch of cases. They've got a bunch of cases or a bunch of different people all about the things that they've done and small little things here. And then what they've done in terms of impact, let's start with our own Rebecca Tomasis who manages a lot of the SEO on the Wix blog. She said one of the things that they've done is a couple of cases was when trying to get traffic from images is they're using the keyword in the alt text anyway, so it's not like they're going to just stuff a keyword in, but when they're using it anyway, try to put the keyword earlier on in the alt text to sort of give Google the content like this is what we're focusing on, this is the intent here. And they saw a bunch of more traffic coming from images from the SERP just because of that small little change. So that's a nice little one. Let's take this one from Jack Chambers-Ward. He's got a whole thing on how they changed a title. So Google had the title tag for a page as home, brand name. That was a title tag. So let's say your brand name is Bob's Furniture, it was homepage Bob's Furniture. And what they did was they changed the title to Wholesale Dried Flowers and Preserved Flowers UK, plus the brand name, and boom, all of a sudden tons more clicks and went to ranking from nothing for 554 keywords. Crystal Carter: That's what I'm saying. This is unbelievable. Mordy Oberstein: It's insane. Crystal Carter: Honestly, people overlook the homepage and think, "Oh yeah, we did that. It's done." But between your homepage page being - Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, we talked about this. Crystal Carter: We talked about the homepage a few different times. We did a podcast on it, we've done a webinar on it. I wrote an article on it. Y'all pay attention to your homepage because there are so many good wins that you can make on that. It gets linked to almost more than any other page, and you can see incredible, incredible gains from some pretty simple implementations on that. Mordy Oberstein: Right. So in that case, since the homepage is like the representative of the entire website, so now the entire website became relevant and they started ranking for 500 keywords because of that one simple change. This one comes from Jessica Maloney, who's a digital strategy lead over at Rise at Seven. She writes, "The simple example I've got is changing mass anchor tax on a site for an old client who did tax refunds. They had loads of mix-match anchors saying tax refund or tax rebate. We changed it all to tax refunds. So not tax rebate and tax refund, but just tax refund and the ranking for that term jumped to position three and maintained, whereas previously it was extremely volatile on page two." So a simple change of the anchor text. Crystal Carter: This is what I'm saying. This is what- Mordy Oberstein: It's amazing. Let's take another one. Crystal Carter: Okay, I can see one from Anajitay Amari who's saying, "Submitting your site map to Google Search Console, major boom." And I cannot say that I've not seen that happen. Normally it's for websites that don't have a site map. Sometimes self-builds don't have a site map, but the people who are on Wix, anybody who's listening who is a Wix user, you have a site map, you're welcome. But people who don't have their site map there. But also for instance, on Wix, we allow you to submit your site map to Google Search Console when you connect to Wix. And the reason why is because it's really useful. It means that Google can see that the information that they need, and they can see which pages are the best, and they don't have to guess or try to figure it out based on traffic that they see in other places, and they can get exactly what they need in exactly the way that you want them to see it. So I absolutely agree that spending some time on your site map and getting it to Google the way that best suits you is super important and can be really straightforward and simple. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, it's crazy to hear. This one is from Ryan Jones over SEO Testing. He goes, "We took a blog post that had been finished, and all we did was create a video on the same topic using the blog post as the base. It uploaded the video to YouTube. We then embedded the YouTube video to the blog post and requested Google the index the page again." They saw 106% increase in clicks per day, a 21% increase in impressions per day, and the average position jump up to 57, just by adding the video into the page. Crystal Carter: So much, so much. Mordy Oberstein: It's crazy. All in a video. The point is, I think we could take away that sometimes really simple things have a really big impact. Crystal Carter: You just need to find the thing that is the core change and build on it. Like you said, build on your skills and build on the work that you're doing to make sure that yeah, you're getting the best results. Mordy Oberstein: Which is why, by the way, I like to read seroundtable.com by Barry Schwartz. Sometimes the articles are about little small changes that Google's making. You think, "Oh, this is so basic. Google changed the favicon to be this instead of that." But sometimes when you put it all together, you get a real directional understanding of where Google's going just by tracking the small things that Barry's covering over at SE Roundtable. Which brings us to this week's Snappy News. Snappy news, snappy news, snappy news. More opportunity on the search for all of y'all authoritative sites as spotted by our very own Crystal Carter and as covered by our very beloved Battery Schwarz over on search engine land. Google Search testing mentioned in Search Snippet. It's basically a carousel that appears within certain organic results that gives you other websites that mentioned the site shown in the organic result. So for example, Crystal's search for car advice and the website Car Talk appears on the results page and underneath it, or within it is a little carousel that says mentioned in that also shows the page from the New York Times that mentions the Car Talk website. All of the results that I've seen have a link back to the website shown in the organic results, but I don't think it's just links. I mean, for one, the feature is called mentioned in not linked in. Well, that wouldn't work anyway now that I say that, but it's called mentioned in and in some cases the set is mentioned very prominently in the headers, the title and so forth. So I think it's a little bit more than just the link. I think it's actually that they can tell, Google can tell if there's an actual mention there. Anyway, onto AI business, Barry Schwarz over at Search Engine Roundtable this time, official Google's search generative experience gets links. So aside from the cards that show in the... I call it the AI box, but it's called the Search Generative Experience, Google now has links within- Mordy Oberstein: ... with experience Google now has links within the actual text summary itself. So it's a little dropdown icon that brings up a little carousel of results or a little couple of cards of results depending upon where Google got the information from. So it could be a combination of Google's own knowledge panel or knowledge graph rather, or it could be from a website or a combination of the two and so forth. It's a great addition to the search generative experience and it helps you really see where the information comes from and it could help you get more clicks to your website. Okay. Also on SGE and also again from Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable, Google shares early feedback on SGE expands to Japan and India. There's a whole heap of information here. Barry links to the actual Google page that talks about this, and I do recommend that you go read that and we will link to that in the show notes. But one thing that stuck out to me and to quote the article itself, "The highest satisfaction scores among younger users, 18 and 24 year olds who say they enjoy being able to ask follow-up questions conversationally." My take, it's not just the interactive ability to ask a follow-up question. I think younger people in general, as a general content preference and as a general content trend prefer more conversational type of content, both in tone, both in format, and both in the actual way that the functionality is structured. In this case, you can ask a follow-up question because it's SGE. But I do think it speaks to a wider trend of younger people looking for more conversational type of content. And that's not just a specific SGE AI thing. That's just a content thing. And with that, that's this week's snappy news. You know, I regret not basking in the glory of what that pivot was before the onset of it. So now that we're back from the news, I just want to bask in the glory of that pivot. That was ... You didn't know it was even coming, it was so good. Crystal Carter: It was very pivotalicious. Mordy Oberstein: Pivotalicious. How do you like your sandwich? Pivotalicious, that's how I like my sandwiches. Crystal Carter: Swirling around. Mordy Oberstein: Swirling around. You know what's always swirling around with some great SEO insights? Ola King. Ola King is our follow of the week is at @justolaking on Twitter. That's J-U-S-T-O-L-A-K-I-N-G over on Twitter. He's an SEO nerd. Previously the product person over at Moz. Super nice. I've never met a nicer fellow before. He's incredibly nice. Crystal Carter: And you guys have matching dress then. You guys, I got a picture of the two of you at MozCon in a matching cream-colored turtleneck. Mordy Oberstein: Oh nice. I totally forgot about that. Crystal Carter: Yeah. It was good. Mordy Oberstein: Well, if anybody's got style inclinations like myself, I mean clearly they're ... Crystal Carter: Obviously, but I think also he's got some really good ... So he's a Notion ambassador and I'm such a big fan of Notion in my days. So he's also got some really good Notion toolkits that he offers to help people learn the basics and to help people get to use some of their sort of new products. And he's behind this sort of SEO growth kit, which talks about how to get going with your SEO goals. So setting goals, SEO checklists and link building checklists, all of that sort of stuff. And there's tons of different guides in there that are helping you to cover the basics. I think somebody was saying that the thing about SEO is that it's a lot of small things that add up to a big thing, and you just sort of have to be able to organize them and he's got some great tools for helping people to organize them and to use some of the tasks that individually aren't that complicated. But if you put them together just strategically, can help you get some really complex but great results. Mordy Oberstein: So follow Ola King over on Twitter. We'll link to his profile in the show notes, but also on LinkedIn I believe, so you can look for him there as well. Give Ola a follow and tell him that we sent you. And that's it. That's all I got. And no pivot. I almost made it through the entire show with awesome pivots until I just blew it. It's so me. Crystal Carter: Maybe we could go back in time with the DeLorean. Mordy Oberstein: I'm just going to run in place 88 miles per hour. Crystal Carter: Right. Okay. Mordy Oberstein: I'll try right now. Crystal Carter: Right. We'll play some Chuck Berry and it will be fine. Mordy Oberstein: Well, yeah. And also, if you want to go back in time and check out some previous episodes that you missed, head over to the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. So a little pivot there. Thank you for joining us on The SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week as we dive into a audience request in debunking SEO myths. Look for it wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO Learning over at wix.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content and webinars on the Wix SEO Learning Hub at, you guest it, wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Joshua George Rebecca Tomasis Jack Chambers-Ward Ryan Jones Ola King Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter ClickSlice SEO Agency News: Google Search testing “Mentioned in” search snippet Official: Google Search Generative Experience Gets Links Google Shares Early Feedback On SGE, Expands To Japan & India Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Joshua George Rebecca Tomasis Jack Chambers-Ward Ryan Jones Ola King Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter ClickSlice SEO Agency News: Google Search testing “Mentioned in” search snippet Official: Google Search Generative Experience Gets Links Google Shares Early Feedback On SGE, Expands To Japan & India Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's a new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, mahalo for joining the Surf's Up podcast where we've got some groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the Head of SEO Branding at Wix joined by the amazing, fantastic, the incredible, the bonafide SEO expert guru person, our head of SEO communications, Crystal Carter, guru. Crystal Carter: I did go on TikTok at some point and say I was, I'm an SEO expert, which I think is always such a strange term because SEO is changing all the time and so sometimes I feel like I know things and sometimes I feel like a complete newb, but I think that that's one of the beauties of the industry personally. Mordy Oberstein: I kind of feel like when someone writes Guru, I always think of Goro from Mortal Kombat. I'm an SEO Goro and I think of them having six arms and fighting other players. Crystal Carter: Was that Jocelyn? Mordy Oberstein: No, no, no. That's Goro. Mortal Kombat. Crystal Carter: I'm thinking Street Fighter. Mordy Oberstein: You're thinking of Street Fighter. Crystal Carter: I'm thinking of Street Fighter. Mordy Oberstein: Very similar. Crystal Carter: Very similar. I was much better as Street Fighter though. I was a big fan of E. Honda because he was really good. I'm a bit of a one move Barry and E. Honda has a big arm. I'd just be like, wall of arm, just eat this fist. Mordy Oberstein: I was a Vega person in Street Fighter and a Scorpion person in Mortal Kombat and I was terrible at both. The SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix where you can not only subscribe to our monthly SEO newsletter, searchlight over wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but where you can optimize all your metadata just the way you want to. Oh, but Mordy, metatags, that's so fundamental, but behold the power of SEO fundamentals. Yep. We're talking about the unexpected power of getting the SEO basics right. Sometimes little SEO things can do big SEO things or all big SEO things are built on the shoulders of smaller SEO things or getting the basics right says a lot about your site to search engines and to prove it all Joshua George chimes in with how focusing on the SEO fundamentals has actually paid off in real scenarios. Since we're talking about fundamentals, we'll share some sites and scenarios with you, who are handling the basics right and how that changed the course of their SEO performance and of course we have the snap piece of SEO news for you and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness, so buckle up because even though those Deloreans aren't going back in time, it is going back to basics. It's episode number 54 of the SERP's Up podcast. I want to hop in a DeLorean and go back to basics. 88 miles per hour Marty, 88 miles per hour. Crystal Carter: Wait, we need another flux capacitor or something. I feel like that will help us to do that. Mordy Oberstein: I recently rescheduled a meeting with somebody and I put it back to the previous week instead of ahead to the previous week and they're like oh, Mordy, I think you scheduled for last week. I'm like, 88 miles per hour. Flux capacitors, DeLoreans and time machines aside, if you're new to SEO and you see all sorts of SEO scoff at the basics of SEO, ignore that because if you've been in SEO for a long time, then you should know how impactful some of the most basic SEO tasks can be and why you shouldn't ignore them or gloss over them for the fancier shinier SEO things. I've had so many cases where nailing down things like basic pay structure, help pay to stay in the index or changing a title tag, made a ranking difference. They might seem like small things, but their impact can be big. Leaving all that aside, you never know what will make the difference. Let me just harp on that for a second. You never really do know what will actually make the difference and Glenn Davis talked about where you throw the kitchen sink at it because you never know what's going to pay off and what's actually going to make the difference between you ranking versus a competitor ranking. As much as SEOs may not want to omit it, sometimes it actually is a crapshoot. You want to be one of the three to five pages, let's say, in the world, who rank for a keyword. A top three or top five, let's say top three. Three pages in the whole world who rank in those positions. That can kind of be a crapshoot sometimes and you never know what's actually going to pay off for you, what's actually going to be the needle mover. More than that, getting the fundamentals right is being aligned with best practices and that is a statement to users, it's a statement to your potential clients and consumers and it is a statement to search engines that you understand what it means to create healthy web content, healthy functioning web content on the web and that's seriously important. Whether it's tweaking an H1 or H2 or formatting a text into a table or a list or update a title tag or adding all text to an image or even adding a caption, don't underestimate the power behind those simple SEO actions and if anyone tells you otherwise, you send them to me. Mic drop. End broadcast. Crystal Carter: I mean, I agree. This goes back to something my mom always said, which was, common sense ain't that common. I think that people will scoff at the basics like, oh, we did some internal linking, we did some this and it's tricky because the clients they were like, "I heard about this and I heard about that and I want to do this and I want to do that" and we're like, but you haven't done title tax, you haven't done your H1s. You haven't added any pictures to this. You have a wall of text my friend. Clients will be like, "I wanted to do something super exciting." It's like, you'll get that stuff after you do the basic stuff and I think that it's something that as an SEO, you have to hold your nerve and go, yeah, we're going to do this. It's going to be a little bit boring for a minute. Hang in there because we'll see some good results. I think again because it's not super exciting, like I said, common sense ain't that common. A lot of people ain't doing it, so a lot of people aren't hitting their basic SEO things. A lot of people aren't hitting those things. If you are covering those bases then you are going to see some benefit because you are going to be doing more than most people are doing because most people are cutting corners. Most people are trying to jump the queue and if you are actually covering those bases, then it's really, really important. It's like, you have to learn- Mordy Oberstein: You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. Crystal Carter: Everybody wants to be Michael Jordan or whatever, but Michael Jordan spent a lot of time doing layups, doing regular layups just like everybody else and there's going to be a lot of people... If you look at great musicians, they spend a lot of time practicing scales over and over and over and over and over again. You'll see people, I think I've seen footage of Jimi Hendrix or whatever, just practicing scales for hours, just always with a guitar in his hand practicing scales. Scales might seem basic. You're like, I've learned how to do scales. It's like, do it again. Do it again. I think with the basics, not only is it just to hit it the first time, but also to just go back over it and make sure that people aren't slipping, that your team isn't slipping on those things because it might be that you trained up everybody on the basic things and then maybe you got some new folks or maybe you go to new CMS or maybe you got other things that came through that have changed how you approach things and it's really easy to slack on some of the things that seem core, but they're core for a reason because they're effective. Mordy Oberstein: So many times I've seen a well optimized page, but the headers are just not explicit and it's not good for readers either when it happens, by the way. Half of these things are beneficial for SEO, also beneficial for users and they're really simple and really ignored. I've had a case where on a podcast website that I have, where a bunch of my pages weren't indexed. I'm like, you know what? The headers are not very explicit. I wrote this months ago. I don't know what I'm talking about here. Let me go back and let me change that and it's a basic thing and now the pages are indexed. Going back to the music example or going back to the Michael Jordan, there'd be no Michael Jordan if there wasn't a Dr. J. Right? Things build upon themselves. You don't just have a Michael Jordan. You have an entire history of basketball that leads to a Michael Jordan and a history of basketball because everything afterwards doesn't matter, but leaving that aside, that's a hot take. Music is the same thing, right? You don't have a Nirvana, unless you have a Buddy Holly. Those things don't happen. The same thing with your website. If you're not getting the basic structure of your pages down, the basic format of your pages down, the basic elements of your pages down, even the basic content that you need on your website, an about page or whatever it is. You're not going to be able to do things like advanced keyword content clusters. That's not happening. Crystal Carter: Right. Precisely. I saw this thing and it really stuck with me. It was just a little thing on TikTok and they were saying, I'm high maintenance so I can be low maintenance. It's like, you spend loads of time on your keyword research. You spend a lot of time on your keyword research. You spend a lot of time on your site architecture. You spend a lot of time making sure that your URLs are optimized, that you got title tags, meta descriptions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All your H1s, your H2s... Crystal Carter: ... descriptions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All your H1s or H2s et cetera, really hitting the marks on those. You spend a lot of time on that so that you just need to tweak a little bit as you go forward. You spend a lot of time on the fundamentals. You spend a lot of time on the things that will set you up for success down the line. So for instance, in the Wix SEO tools, we have the SEO settings that allows you to set the syntax for lots of parts of some of your SEO tags and even your structured data and things like that. Spending the time, making sure that that works, making sure that that's good for you, that you've covered those bases, will allow you to grow and it will allow you to grow quickly if you need to, because you will have the syntax set up for all of that sort of stuff going forward. People are like, "Oh, I don't want to do the SEO set of checklists." I'm like, "But you should, because it covers lots of things that it's really easy to forget, and it's a checklist that covers this, this, this, this, and this." And people are like, "Oh, it's really simple." I'm like, "Is it? Because not everybody's- Mordy Oberstein: You gloss over it all the time. Crystal Carter: People gloss over it, and there's lots of times where people just don't do the things, and you should do them because it will help you. It will fundamentally help you. Mordy Oberstein: Same thing with, let's say a blog post. We have the SEO Assistant. It helps you optimize title tag, header, body, whatever. The basic SEO task you should be doing for a blog post. And I'll tell you something, there's been many, many times where you optimize a title tag or the headers or whatever foundational element that we're talking about, and you see us say a ranking boost. So Google sees you a little bit more relevant for a certain keyword and you're like, "You know what?" Let's take a title tag. Let's go with a particular example. I wrote a good title tag. I see there's a ranking for whatever, whatever I see that I'm also ranking for, say, another ancillary keyword. Maybe now refine my title tag to try to target that secondary keyword at the same time. And I go up from, let's say, 20 to 10. Now I say, "You know what? Now I can refine that. I can refine the headers. I can refine all these small things," and now I've gone from 10 to eight. You can't get to that point of refining and refining it, refining it from zero to 60 in three seconds. I've literally done this a gazillion times. It's months. I create the title tag, I have the headers, I have this. I see that there's room for improvement. I tweak. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: I see this data says something different now. Great. I tweak again. Crystal Carter: I had a client who was doing e-commerce stuff and they had the same H1. My favorite thing is when you do an audit on a site, and particularly the blog post and the H1 will be unique, and the H2 will be, "Read these related blogs," or something, and you're just like, "That's not-" Mordy Oberstein: Stacks? Crystal Carter: Right. No, it'll just be the thing that's the recommended box. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, I got you. All the way at the bottom of the page, H2 articles. Crystal Carter: Yeah, exactly. And if I see that, I'm just like, "Y'all need H2. You'll need H2." And the thing is, people are like, "oh, does that really matter?" I'm like, "Yes." I've done it a million times where you add that in. And what it is it's giving Google priority. It's giving Google information about the priority of the page, and it's telling them which things are important. It's giving them more context to what is on your page, and it is important. And I know that it's maybe takes a little bit of time, but it's super important and really valuable. Mordy Oberstein: There's no way in my mind... Imagine you had a scenario like that. You have a hundred blog posts, and the H1 is great. The content, everything is great. The title tag, everything is great. And the H2 in all of them, the second H2 is related articles. There's no way in my mind that Google looks at that website and says, "In terms of quality and helpfulness, this site gets a great score." Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: Because those basic things mean that you are dealing with your site in a quality way. Crystal Carter: Right. If you go to a hotel or something like that, everyone's going to have towels, for instance. Mordy Oberstein: I love towels. They're always itchy and scratchy though with the- Crystal Carter: I love hotel towels. I just love- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, they're stiff. No. Crystal Carter: No, they're my favorite. I love them. They've just been bleached. I just love it. I just love them. Anyway, so everybody's got towels, and that's basic. Mordy Oberstein: Wait, have you ever stolen a towel before from a hotel? Crystal Carter: No, I've never done that. I'm a good person. Mordy Oberstein: They once asked Yogi Berra, "Do you ever stay at a fine hotel on the road?" Yogi was a baseball player in the 1950s. And he said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. We once stayed at this fancy hotel in Chicago. It was great. There was only one problem." They said, "Oh, what, Yogi?" He's like, "The towels were so thick." "What's the problem with that, Yogi?" "I couldn't close the suitcase." Sorry. But a great story, right? Crystal Carter: That's a great story. So yeah, so every place is going to have a towel or every hotel is going to have a towel, and you expect that. And there's ways that you can add care to that experience. You can be like, "Oh, well, we also have some lovely soaps to go with it," or, "We also have a bathrobe or something to go with that experience as well." And you're like, "Oh, okay, so this is somebody who's more than just the normal thing," but you expect every hotel to have towels. Mordy Oberstein: Imagine they only had a bathrobe and they had no towel. Crystal Carter: What? Exactly. Mordy Oberstein: I'm out of here. Crystal Carter: What is this? Mordy Oberstein: There's a mint on the pillow, but there's no blanket. Crystal Carter: But there's no towel? What am I doing here? So it's very important, but these are signals, and you see these signals when you're in a nice restaurant, there are signals. They'll have cloth tablecloths and you're like, "Oh, okay, this is a nice restaurant," as opposed to one where people eat out of buckets. Mordy Oberstein: Wendy's. Crystal Carter: I like Wendy's, but whatever. Anyway, I'm just saying there are signs, there are signals that you give. And similarly, Google will see signals that somebody spent some time on this content and somebody has invested time making this content good and it doesn't need to cost the earth. Making H1s and H2s doesn't cost a lot of money. Fixing your links so that you don't have a bunch of redirects all over your page, a broken link so that you don't have pages that have no links on them. One of my bugbears is when I'm reading content and they're like, "Oh, there's this great thing. It's so great. You should learn really about..." And there's no link. And I'm like, "Where's the link? Where's the link? You're telling me all about it. I want to see it. Where's the link?" So, those sorts of things don't cost a lot of money. You don't need an extra tool to do that. You can just get in there and you can update that stuff, but it shows care. So even if we're talking about the fancy restaurant, for instance, they're the people who have beautiful silverware and fancy table settings and all of that sort of stuff. And maybe you're a smaller restaurant or whatever, and maybe you do have little baskets and stuff like that, but there's ways that you can show care with it. There's ways that you can show care and ways that you can add value. You might have a really nice playlist or maybe you made the things by hand. Maybe they're homemade things, maybe they're whatever, but use the tools that you have to make the most out of what you have. Mordy Oberstein: It'd be like serving a great dish at a restaurant with no cutlery. Where's the spoon? You don't want to put out a great dish without the cutlery. And speaking of people who put out great dishes and also put out the cutlery, let's talk to Joshua George about how focusing on the SEO fundamentals has actually paid off for him. Joshua George: Hey, so I'm a big believer of focusing on the SEO fundamentals and really not trying to over-complicate things. It's quite interesting because whenever you speak to someone who is new in the SEO space, they always have this false misconception that to rank number one on Google, you need to be doing some SEO mystery tactics behind the scenes, or there must be some sort of SEO hack that no one speaks about in public. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the biggest SEO hack is that there is no SEO hack. And the sooner you understand that and focus on the core SEO fundamentals, the sooner you're going to rank your website and rank your client sites too. I'm a big believer of fancy fails and simple scales, and if you take it one step back and just look at what is Google's core goal when it comes to Google search, well, Google's goal is to return the best search results to the users so the users are happy with what they see, and come back and use Google again in the future. If you focus on the fundamentals, which is increasing your site's relevancy and increasing your site's authority, you are going to rank number one. To increase your relevancy, you need to publish as many publicly relevant blogs on your website as possible. For example, if you are a plumber, then you should be publishing blogs on your website, such as the pros and cons of hiring a plumber, how much does a plumber charge? The evolution of the plumbing industry. All things to do with the service you offer plumbing. That's how you increase your relevancy. You increase your authority by acquiring high quality backlinks. We follow these two processes on ClickSlice, and ClickSlice actually ranks number one for the keyword, "SEO agency London," and we also ranked number one for, "SEO consultant London." There were two very, very, very competitive terms, and we've done it by focusing on the core SSEO fundamentals and not overcomplicating things. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Joshua. It's a great point. You don't want to overcomplicate SEO when you don't have to overcomplicate SEO. You don't win a medal for overcomplicating SEO for the sake of overcomplicating SEO. Now make sure you give Joshua follow over on Twitter at _Josh- Mordy Oberstein: Now, make sure you give Joshua follow over on Twitter at _JoshuaSEO. That's under J-O-S-H-U-A, SEO over on Twitter. Super valuable follow. Super nice guy. Actually, really, really appreciate Joshua, and thank you again for sharing your insights with us. And again, we'll link to Joshua's Twitter bio in the show notes. Now, let's put our money where our mouths are and have a look at some real cases where getting the basics right does actually, or did actually have an impact as we justify the focus on fundamentals by going to the top of the SERP. So what I did here is I basically crowdsourced. I'm like, hey y'all, I have my own example as well, but hey, y'all give me some cases where you did some basic thing that was not shiny or sexy at all, but it paid off big for you. And I got a flood of responses. But let's start off, Crystal, with one that we actually worked on together with Fox Fudge. They're a great Wix website. They sell fudge online. It looks delicious. I will not lie to you, it looks fabulous. So check out foxfudge.com, little plug for them. They go to a lot of local events and they sell their fudge at these local events as well as they should. And one of the things that we noticed was, "Hey, wait a second. In many cases or some cases, they're actually outranking the event itself." Because what they do on the Fox Fudge website at the direction of Crystal, if I'm not mistaken, was... And by the way, big shout out to James Core, great Wix partner designing their website. Fabulous guy. So big shout out to him and the all work he's doing with Fox Fudge. But what they're doing is they're putting in the title tag, the name of the event. So for example, the keyword 2023 hot town summer salute, Fox Fudge is ranking over basically everything but the Facebook page for the event itself because it's in the title tag. Crystal Carter: Right, they're adding in that information. And this is a prime example as well. Again, high maintenance, so you can be low maintenance. This particular page is also using a Wix event page, which has a lot of technical things built into it. So for instance, it's also got the event schema built into it. And this is something that you can think about when you're thinking about which basics you need to cover, is that if you have a lot of bases that are covered within your CMS, within your build and things like that, then you can add onto them really simply, really simply, really easily, and it will make sure that it looks good. For instance, if you got a really good lead on a place where you can get potato salads and whenever there's a potluck or something like that, you can go and purchase your potato salad from your favorite delicatessen, and then you just need to put a little bit of parsley on top and you can showcase to all your friends about how great you're doing. So they're able to get some of these great things by doing some of these seemingly basic implementation on their side because they got a good technical foundation from the Wix product. And I think that that's something that you should also think about when you're thinking about where you can get the most impact from fairly simple, fairly straightforward SEO activity. Mordy Oberstein: So let's run through a bunch of cases. They've got a bunch of cases or a bunch of different people all about the things that they've done and small little things here. And then what they've done in terms of impact, let's start with our own Rebecca Tomasis who manages a lot of the SEO on the Wix blog. She said one of the things that they've done is a couple of cases was when trying to get traffic from images is they're using the keyword in the alt text anyway, so it's not like they're going to just stuff a keyword in, but when they're using it anyway, try to put the keyword earlier on in the alt text to sort of give Google the content like this is what we're focusing on, this is the intent here. And they saw a bunch of more traffic coming from images from the SERP just because of that small little change. So that's a nice little one. Let's take this one from Jack Chambers-Ward. He's got a whole thing on how they changed a title. So Google had the title tag for a page as home, brand name. That was a title tag. So let's say your brand name is Bob's Furniture, it was homepage Bob's Furniture. And what they did was they changed the title to Wholesale Dried Flowers and Preserved Flowers UK, plus the brand name, and boom, all of a sudden tons more clicks and went to ranking from nothing for 554 keywords. Crystal Carter: That's what I'm saying. This is unbelievable. Mordy Oberstein: It's insane. Crystal Carter: Honestly, people overlook the homepage and think, "Oh yeah, we did that. It's done." But between your homepage page being - Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, we talked about this. Crystal Carter: We talked about the homepage a few different times. We did a podcast on it, we've done a webinar on it. I wrote an article on it. Y'all pay attention to your homepage because there are so many good wins that you can make on that. It gets linked to almost more than any other page, and you can see incredible, incredible gains from some pretty simple implementations on that. Mordy Oberstein: Right. So in that case, since the homepage is like the representative of the entire website, so now the entire website became relevant and they started ranking for 500 keywords because of that one simple change. This one comes from Jessica Maloney, who's a digital strategy lead over at Rise at Seven. She writes, "The simple example I've got is changing mass anchor tax on a site for an old client who did tax refunds. They had loads of mix-match anchors saying tax refund or tax rebate. We changed it all to tax refunds. So not tax rebate and tax refund, but just tax refund and the ranking for that term jumped to position three and maintained, whereas previously it was extremely volatile on page two." So a simple change of the anchor text. Crystal Carter: This is what I'm saying. This is what- Mordy Oberstein: It's amazing. Let's take another one. Crystal Carter: Okay, I can see one from Anajitay Amari who's saying, "Submitting your site map to Google Search Console, major boom." And I cannot say that I've not seen that happen. Normally it's for websites that don't have a site map. Sometimes self-builds don't have a site map, but the people who are on Wix, anybody who's listening who is a Wix user, you have a site map, you're welcome. But people who don't have their site map there. But also for instance, on Wix, we allow you to submit your site map to Google Search Console when you connect to Wix. And the reason why is because it's really useful. It means that Google can see that the information that they need, and they can see which pages are the best, and they don't have to guess or try to figure it out based on traffic that they see in other places, and they can get exactly what they need in exactly the way that you want them to see it. So I absolutely agree that spending some time on your site map and getting it to Google the way that best suits you is super important and can be really straightforward and simple. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, it's crazy to hear. This one is from Ryan Jones over SEO Testing. He goes, "We took a blog post that had been finished, and all we did was create a video on the same topic using the blog post as the base. It uploaded the video to YouTube. We then embedded the YouTube video to the blog post and requested Google the index the page again." They saw 106% increase in clicks per day, a 21% increase in impressions per day, and the average position jump up to 57, just by adding the video into the page. Crystal Carter: So much, so much. Mordy Oberstein: It's crazy. All in a video. The point is, I think we could take away that sometimes really simple things have a really big impact. Crystal Carter: You just need to find the thing that is the core change and build on it. Like you said, build on your skills and build on the work that you're doing to make sure that yeah, you're getting the best results. Mordy Oberstein: Which is why, by the way, I like to read seroundtable.com by Barry Schwartz. Sometimes the articles are about little small changes that Google's making. You think, "Oh, this is so basic. Google changed the favicon to be this instead of that." But sometimes when you put it all together, you get a real directional understanding of where Google's going just by tracking the small things that Barry's covering over at SE Roundtable. Which brings us to this week's Snappy News. Snappy news, snappy news, snappy news. More opportunity on the search for all of y'all authoritative sites as spotted by our very own Crystal Carter and as covered by our very beloved Battery Schwarz over on search engine land. Google Search testing mentioned in Search Snippet. It's basically a carousel that appears within certain organic results that gives you other websites that mentioned the site shown in the organic result. So for example, Crystal's search for car advice and the website Car Talk appears on the results page and underneath it, or within it is a little carousel that says mentioned in that also shows the page from the New York Times that mentions the Car Talk website. All of the results that I've seen have a link back to the website shown in the organic results, but I don't think it's just links. I mean, for one, the feature is called mentioned in not linked in. Well, that wouldn't work anyway now that I say that, but it's called mentioned in and in some cases the set is mentioned very prominently in the headers, the title and so forth. So I think it's a little bit more than just the link. I think it's actually that they can tell, Google can tell if there's an actual mention there. Anyway, onto AI business, Barry Schwarz over at Search Engine Roundtable this time, official Google's search generative experience gets links. So aside from the cards that show in the... I call it the AI box, but it's called the Search Generative Experience, Google now has links within- Mordy Oberstein: ... with experience Google now has links within the actual text summary itself. So it's a little dropdown icon that brings up a little carousel of results or a little couple of cards of results depending upon where Google got the information from. So it could be a combination of Google's own knowledge panel or knowledge graph rather, or it could be from a website or a combination of the two and so forth. It's a great addition to the search generative experience and it helps you really see where the information comes from and it could help you get more clicks to your website. Okay. Also on SGE and also again from Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable, Google shares early feedback on SGE expands to Japan and India. There's a whole heap of information here. Barry links to the actual Google page that talks about this, and I do recommend that you go read that and we will link to that in the show notes. But one thing that stuck out to me and to quote the article itself, "The highest satisfaction scores among younger users, 18 and 24 year olds who say they enjoy being able to ask follow-up questions conversationally." My take, it's not just the interactive ability to ask a follow-up question. I think younger people in general, as a general content preference and as a general content trend prefer more conversational type of content, both in tone, both in format, and both in the actual way that the functionality is structured. In this case, you can ask a follow-up question because it's SGE. But I do think it speaks to a wider trend of younger people looking for more conversational type of content. And that's not just a specific SGE AI thing. That's just a content thing. And with that, that's this week's snappy news. You know, I regret not basking in the glory of what that pivot was before the onset of it. So now that we're back from the news, I just want to bask in the glory of that pivot. That was ... You didn't know it was even coming, it was so good. Crystal Carter: It was very pivotalicious. Mordy Oberstein: Pivotalicious. How do you like your sandwich? Pivotalicious, that's how I like my sandwiches. Crystal Carter: Swirling around. Mordy Oberstein: Swirling around. You know what's always swirling around with some great SEO insights? Ola King. Ola King is our follow of the week is at @justolaking on Twitter. That's J-U-S-T-O-L-A-K-I-N-G over on Twitter. He's an SEO nerd. Previously the product person over at Moz. Super nice. I've never met a nicer fellow before. He's incredibly nice. Crystal Carter: And you guys have matching dress then. You guys, I got a picture of the two of you at MozCon in a matching cream-colored turtleneck. Mordy Oberstein: Oh nice. I totally forgot about that. Crystal Carter: Yeah. It was good. Mordy Oberstein: Well, if anybody's got style inclinations like myself, I mean clearly they're ... Crystal Carter: Obviously, but I think also he's got some really good ... So he's a Notion ambassador and I'm such a big fan of Notion in my days. So he's also got some really good Notion toolkits that he offers to help people learn the basics and to help people get to use some of their sort of new products. And he's behind this sort of SEO growth kit, which talks about how to get going with your SEO goals. So setting goals, SEO checklists and link building checklists, all of that sort of stuff. And there's tons of different guides in there that are helping you to cover the basics. I think somebody was saying that the thing about SEO is that it's a lot of small things that add up to a big thing, and you just sort of have to be able to organize them and he's got some great tools for helping people to organize them and to use some of the tasks that individually aren't that complicated. But if you put them together just strategically, can help you get some really complex but great results. Mordy Oberstein: So follow Ola King over on Twitter. We'll link to his profile in the show notes, but also on LinkedIn I believe, so you can look for him there as well. Give Ola a follow and tell him that we sent you. And that's it. That's all I got. And no pivot. I almost made it through the entire show with awesome pivots until I just blew it. It's so me. Crystal Carter: Maybe we could go back in time with the DeLorean. Mordy Oberstein: I'm just going to run in place 88 miles per hour. Crystal Carter: Right. Okay. Mordy Oberstein: I'll try right now. Crystal Carter: Right. We'll play some Chuck Berry and it will be fine. Mordy Oberstein: Well, yeah. And also, if you want to go back in time and check out some previous episodes that you missed, head over to the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. So a little pivot there. Thank you for joining us on The SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week as we dive into a audience request in debunking SEO myths. Look for it wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO Learning over at wix.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content and webinars on the Wix SEO Learning Hub at, you guest it, wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

Is eCommerce SEO really a separate discipline? If so, how does it differ from “regular SEO?” Yes, no, maybe? The answer may surprise you. Over the past few years, Google has gotten better and better at delivering custom SERP features for eCommerce, with new elements being released and tested consistently. These features alone are differential factors between eCommerce SEO and regular website SEO. Navigating the requirements of these features is a skill on its own. Mordy and Crystal dive into some of the latest eCommerce changes to the SERP and what they mean for your SEO strategy and outlook. Kristina Azarenko of MarketingSyrup SEO Academy stops by to explore the importance of internal linking and possible permutations for eCommerce SEO. This and more as you “check out” the latest episode of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast! Back Show me the money with eCommerce SEO Is eCommerce SEO really a separate discipline? If so, how does it differ from “regular SEO?” Yes, no, maybe? The answer may surprise you. Over the past few years, Google has gotten better and better at delivering custom SERP features for eCommerce, with new elements being released and tested consistently. These features alone are differential factors between eCommerce SEO and regular website SEO. Navigating the requirements of these features is a skill on its own. Mordy and Crystal dive into some of the latest eCommerce changes to the SERP and what they mean for your SEO strategy and outlook. Kristina Azarenko of MarketingSyrup SEO Academy stops by to explore the importance of internal linking and possible permutations for eCommerce SEO. This and more as you “check out” the latest episode of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast! Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 18 | December 21, 2022 | 35 MIN 00:00 / 35:03 This week’s guests Kristina Azarenko Kristina has over a decade of hands-on SEO experience. She is the founder of MarketingSyrup Academy which trains smart SEOs. Over 1200+ people have gone through her courses, including Tech SEO Pro and eCommerce SEO Mastery. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, mahalo for joining the SERP's Up podcast, where we're pushing out groovy, new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, head of SEO branding here at Wix and I'm joined by the fabulous, the wonderful, the incredible Crystal Carter, head of SEO communications here at Wix. Crystal Carter: At Wix. Isn't that a coincidence? Mordy Oberstein: It is. I feel like I know you from somewhere. Crystal Carter: It's from ... Mordy Oberstein: Have I seen you? You look so familiar, it's from Wix. Crystal Carter: From Wix, yeah. Mordy Oberstein: From Wix. Crystal Carter: That's very funny. Mordy Oberstein: That's funny. I've seen you in the hallway a couple of times. Crystal Carter: Yeah. And strangely enough, not at the hallways at Wix. Mordy Oberstein: Because we don't physically work together. Crystal Carter: No, but that's a wonderful thing about the modern world. I literally see you every day. Mordy Oberstein: Which reminds us, since you're talking about Wix, that the SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can now edit all of your SEO stuff. You know, robots, meta tags, title tags, meta-description, structure data and so forth, SEO stuff, with far greater ease than ever before. Check out the new Wix edit by page feature where you can get a look at all of the pages in the folder all at once and update all of the SEO stuff right there, without bouncing from page to page in the editor or dashboard. It's Wix SEO, where we make working on your larger sites easier than ever. All the SEO stuff. Crystal Carter: All the SEO stuff for all of y'all. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, I love the word y'all, by the way. So, I adopted that when I moved to Baltimore. My wife's in Baltimore. We lived there for a few years. I never knew what y'all was, because I'm from New York City. We don't have y'all, but y'all is amazing. Crystal Carter: It's a great word. And actually, actually people talk about it not being grammatically correct. However, it exists in lots of other languages. So, if you study Spanish for instance, [foreign language 00:02:03] is the plural you and that is what y'all is. Mordy Oberstein: Y'all. Crystal Carter: It's the plural you. It's also genderless, which is good. So, it's inclusive for everybody. Mordy Oberstein: It's wonderful. I love sending it out in email to people who are not from America. "Hey, y'all." As if they have any clue what I'm talking about. It's really a money word. Crystal Carter: Right, this is true. Mordy Oberstein: And you know what's money? This episode is going to be money. Not because there's any sort of cash transactions involved or anything… Yeah, it's disappointing, I know. But because talking eCommerce, SEO and- Crystal Carter: Cha-ching. Mordy Oberstein: I was going to make that sound effect, but you beat me to it. And the question is, how different is eCommerce SEO from regular SEO, really? Listen in as Crystal and I debate, go back and forth. Crystal Carter: Discuss. Mordy Oberstein: Maybe, we'll see. Between whether or not eComm SEO is really a separate discipline while we dive into the ins and out of eCommerce, SEO along the way, with tips to make sure that you get your eCommerce SEO, right. Kristina Azarenko also will stop by to share her tips around eCommerce, SEO and what moves the needle. Plus we'll dive into what's new on the eCommerce SERP. And of course, some snapping SEO news and who you should be following on social for more SEO awesomeness. Are you bought in? Because episode number 18 of the SERP's Up podcast is open for business. Crystal Carter: Oh, I like that. That was good. That was good. Mordy Oberstein: So many. Crystal Carter: That was good. Have you brought lots of SEO receipts? Mordy Oberstein: Ooh, I like that. I like that we're getting cornier by the minute. Crystal Carter: There's no stopping us. There's no stopping until we have completed the transaction. Mordy Oberstein: Each week it's going to ... Oh, you got me, I didn't really ... take a second, like whoosh right over my head. That exchange didn't go the way I thought it would. Crystal Carter: Well, but maybe we should lay it away for another day. Mordy Oberstein: We're really shipping it out here. Anyway, in SEO, so let me introduce this, because in SEO there are all sorts of disciplines. There's tech SEO and the people in tech SEO, they focus on crawlability and indexability. There are link builders or outreach specialists and they spend a whole lot of time building links and doing all other sorts of spammy things. Crystal Carter: They do lots of nice things as well. Mordy Oberstein: They do lots of nice things too. I'm really being not the greatest with that. There's also local SEO. Now, that's probably the most famous segment of SEO, and that makes a great deal of sense why there's a separate discipline and separate group of people who are local SEOs because, well, the algorithm is different. It's a whole separate area specialization. There's Google Business Profile, you have to know the ins and outs of that. There's getting your profile, your business listing, suspended accidentally and then reinstated. That's a whole separate discipline of SEO. So, it makes a great deal of sense why there is a separate discipline called local SEO and local SEOs who do local SEO. Now, once such area of SEO that's emerged over the last few years is eComm SEO or eCommerce SEO. Question is should eComm SEO be a separate area of SEO? I recall having a conversation with Tory Gray over at Gray Dot, and her take was, Well, eComm SEO, it's pretty much not that different from regular SEO, just more focused on the regular SEO tasks and greater concentration. So, I don't know, I guess you could slice ... I mean, you could break it down like this. Does eCommerce mean, eCommerce SEO, mean that you just need to be better at certain more common SEO tasks? Or is it a totally different mindset and a totally different outlook, with its own unique considerations? Crystal? Crystal Carter: I think it is. I think it's very unique. I think there's a reason why people look for SEOs who have eCommerce specialty. I think that it has to do with the type of content that you're dealing with. So, for instance, if you have an eCommerce website that is selling popcorn, like different varieties of popcorn, for instance, since we were talking about being corny, then I think that you're going to have lots of different products that are pretty much the same. So, a lot of your content is going to be very, very similar and you're going to need to differentiate them, but also make sure that they show in a sort of similar category of products at the same time. And so, you have to deal with categorization in a different way. You have to deal with duplicate content in a different way. You also have the responsibility of managing lots of user transactions. So, users need to be able to complete a purchase on an eCommerce site. So, this is great for SEOs because it's really easy to show ROI. If you do something on the blog, then you can track it to a basket somewhere. You can say, "Right, well that blog had an assisted conversion for this campaign," et cetera, et cetera. And that's all great. But it also means that from a technical point of view, you have to think about making sure that all of those things are tracked correctly and are linking up and working through, in a way that you don't have to think about when you're, say working in a lead gen space, or working in a publishing space, where there are no transactions that are taking place on the website. There's also the security factor. So people don't think about it, but eCommerce sites are essentially YMYL sites, your money or your life, because people are putting in their credit card details on your website. And if you have a loyalty scheme for instance, and they're also storing those details, people will have ... they'll store content and they'll store information about people and things like that. So, there's lots of things to consider. Lots of moving parts within an eCommerce website, which doesn't necessarily exist on a site that is purely more of brochure site where you're, say, publishing blogs about, I don't know, philosophy, or the stars, or whatever it may be. And you're essentially publishing content and you're looking at your traffic and that's it. That's all people are doing, people are looking at content or consuming content when people are actually carrying out a transaction. There's a whole different set of SEO responsibilities involved. Mordy Oberstein: So, this will be a good lesson for the SEO community as a whole. I respectfully disagree. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: That's okay. Well, I agree a lot. Wait, let me ... being hyperbolic, I agree with a lot of what you just said. I pretty much agree with everything you just said from a different point of view. Well, accept for one thing. I agree that there's a lot of different things that are going to come up because you're working on an eComm site. There's things you're going to have to deal with from anything from page fast and fast navigation to, as you mentioned, to tracking what's happening differently than you would say, with a blog. Although that's possible that a lot of those things also come up if you're working on a blog site, but probably not with the same frequency, or focus, or complexity. So, I agree with what you're saying, but I think, okay, to what extent is it really that different except for the YMYL thing, then I really disagree. Yes, I agree, it's YMYL. I have to agree. Google said it's YMYL. However, if you look at the rank fluctuation data going way back from all the data providers, you have health, you have finance, and you have shopping. Shopping doesn't show the same level of fluctuations as let's say, health or finance. Because content-wise, it's not YMYL. I think Google, to throw a John Mueller at you, has actually said that, but I got to find that for you, otherwise I'm talking out of my ... So, I agree with you. I think though that yes, if you're saying that in eComm, these things are way more in focus, but is that totally different than regular SEO? Crystal Carter: Yes, because of the moving parts. So, I agree that there's absolutely fundamentals that are transferrable. However, if you don't know how to manage product feeds, for instance, and if you don't know how to deal with Google Merchant and you don't know how to manage all of the images that are required for every single product and have to manage the schema markup for that. Mordy Oberstein: That was my next point. I was going to come around and say, I used to really disagree with this. I used to be like with Tory Gray, where like, eComm is the same, what are you talking about? Whatever. However, because you have things like Google Merchant Center and because the SERP itself is fundamentally changed on the eComm side, I am tending to move to your camp on this. Crystal Carter: Right, yeah. And I think that Google has- Mordy Oberstein: SERP is fundamentally different. Crystal Carter: Well, and also think the SERP is fundamentally different, there's an entirely different dedicated feed. Google treats it differently. So, they've created new shopping experiences online that have trends and all sorts of things. And also, the sites are configured differently. So, they're configured for distribution, with data feeds and things like that. And Google has an entirely separate, unique set of guidelines, specifically around eCommerce because of all of these different requirements. And with regards to the ranking fluctuations, I think probably most websites that are trading online, if you think about a big retailer, like a say, Zara, or Walmart, or Amazon, a lot of the baseline requirements for YMYL in place just in order to comply with legal requirements for selling online and locally as well. So, I think that that element of the YMYL part of it, is this an actually a safe place to put in your credit card details, I think should be fairly standard for most websites. I think that dodgy sellers will tend not to rank very well. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah and that is the fundamental difference, where shopping and say health are both YMYL and from the shopping point of view, getting the YMYL is, as you mentioned, relatively not that difficult, but on a health site it is. And that's because on a health site, the content is the YMYL. Where in the eComm site, it's the shopping experience that's the YMYL. So, you need to get the content right on the health site at a way different level, more detailed level than you would want to say on the shopping site. Because the shopping site, there is a product description and the product header, it's the shopping experience and how that functions that's the YMYL part. But yeah, and just to go back to the SERP part, in case you're not familiar, if you search for, I don't know, buy a new laptop, the SERP for that looks fundamentally different than, I don't know, what are the stars in Orion's Belt? And it looks very similar to a way the local SERP would look, where if you search for a pizza near me, where that SERP is very unique, the eComm SERP has become extremely unique. Whereas now, and in the past, by the way, you had PLAs, you had product listing ads and they're still there, but now you have organic carousels, even on desktop, it's Google pulling in, listing some Google's Merchant Center, Google Shopping onto the main SERP. So, if you're ranking 789 for buy new jeans, no one's seeing you because that shows underneath that massive carousel product listings. Crystal Carter: Right, exactly. And I think that this has to do with Google trying to make sure that the eCommerce experience on the SERP is very similar to an eCommerce experience for shopping, so that it's easy for people to see which things they can buy and so that the people think of it as a destination. I think with Google's appeal for this, has to do with some of the ways that people are searching. People have done a lot of studies around this and people don't always go to Google first for eCommerce queries. People will sometimes go to other websites for eCommerce queries. And so, Google is looking to be competitive with those sites and they're trying to make their SERP more like those sites. And in order to do that, they have a lot of mechanics behind them, different feeds and different category classifications, and different information behind the content, in order to make sure that they can serve it locally, so they can serve it on Google Shopping. So they can serve it in lots of different ways. And you have to configure your website in a certain way in order to be eligible for those features. Google has specific requirements so that you can show in Google Shopping and so that you can show in local inventory ads as well, that sort of thing. And making your website eligible for that is a specific tactic that you have to do as an eCommerce SEO. And it's something that's almost essential for eCommerce websites, in order to perform. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, so that's why fundamentally, I think I'm moving more to your camp because the SERP is fundamentally shifted in a way where you have to have a specialization in eComm to really understand what's happening in that space and to understand how to utilize the SERP because, and to what you mentioned, I think it's important people to realize Google's probably biggest competitor at this point in my personal opinion is Amazon. The web is becoming more eComm-centric. Google realizes that people are going and bypassing Google, they're going to Amazon and Google's doing whatever it can to take away that dynamic and things are going to be ... We're going to be talking about this in a few moments in our what's ... is this new section? Because this SERP is fundamentally shifting very, very quickly because of this. So honestly, if I had to offer you my top eComm SEO tip, if we watch what's happening on the results page itself, see what's there. If you're, I don't know, you're selling jeans, type in buy new jeans or whatever it is that you're selling, and actually look at what's showing up and how the SERP is formatted, because that's going to clue you in as to what you should be doing and if whether or not rankings are actually meaningful or not. Oh by the way, another point of order before we wrap this up and just a mistake I see all the time, all, all, all the time, Google can't read your texts and images. Google can only read text, text. So, if you have a really nice image, that's got really fancy calligraphy or whatever, and it's all talking about your products. And I've seen this by the way, with shipping details, order specifications instead of having actual text, it's in an image that you just upload to the page. Google can't read any of that. So please, if you're operating an eComm site, you're ... Yeah, eComm SEO, I'm going to dive into that, get rid of all your images, use actual text. Crystal Carter: And PDFs. They can read PDFs but they don't call them in the same way. So absolutely, make sure that any of your things are available on there as well. I think that Google's definitely moving towards visual search, but certainly not for understanding texts, but certainly not for your Ts and Cs at all. Mordy Oberstein: You have to write it out. You can have the image there also fine, whatever, looks nice, but you have to have text. But who also knows a lot about what moves the needle for eCommerce SEO, Kristina Azarenko, which is why she's here to tell us what moves the needle for eCommerce SEO. Kristina Azarenko: Well, I'd say that when it comes to technical SEO for eCommerce, there are many things in play. But what I see that works really well is internal linking. And many people just focus on building external links only and they don't control them, but they forget about internal links that they have full control of. Internal links are super, super important. They help to show hierarchy of the website and also distribute authority properly. Plus, they help Google to faster discover and index or re-index internal pages of the website. And it's especially critical for eCommerce because especially if you have dynamic stock with products going in stock and going out of stock, you want Google to pick this up real quickly. So, implementing internal linking is one of the best technical SEO tactics that will bring online stores results. Now, how do you do this at scale? Because we don't want to spend lots of time on implementing this manually on every single page. That's just not sustainable. So, we want to do this at scale. And when it comes to internal linking, what you can do, you can use link blocks depending on your page template. For example, level one category links to other level one categories as well as to the level two categories that belong to it. Then the level two category links back to level one category it belongs to, plus to other level two categories under this umbrella. So, think about it as a spider web that links all relevant pages of the website. And let's take a product page as an example. Then on a product page, you can have breadcrumbs linking to the categories and subcategories this product belongs to. And it's super cool for user experience as well because people want to know where they are, when they land on a product page. Then you can have link blocks featuring upsells and related products and I don't know, other products in this category, the imagination is endless honestly. So, it's a win-win situation here because it helps with internal linking on the one hand. And on the other hand, it helps to increase the average card value as well. So, use power of internal linking for sure. When it comes to eCommerce SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Kristina Azarenko, follow her on Twitter. Thank you so much, Kristina. She's at A-Z-A-R-C-H-I-C-K on Twitter. Will link to her Twitter profile in the show notes. She's a wonderful SEO, always putting out tons of insights and we really appreciate her taking the time to share her thoughts in eCommerce SEO with us. Crystal Carter: Thanks, Kristina. Mordy Oberstein: Thanks, Kristina. Well, speaking of eCommerce, SEO and the SERP, like we mentioned before, I know we hinted at what we're going to talk about now earlier. Well, here it is, everything ... Back in the day, when I used to really track SERP features very, very heavily as part of my job at the time, and a lot of what Google was changing back in the day, so we're saying, I don't know, circa 2016, 2017, even through 2018, was all about local SEO, local pack changes, local knowledge panel changes, local finder changes, a test over here, a test over there, hotel listings, testing that out and keeping track of all these things that Google was updating and changing, whether it was this button or this feature on the results page, was a way of understanding, hey, this is where Google's focused. Well, that focus has changed because today the focus seems to be all in on eComm. Google keeps testing this and updating that, and announcing this. And it's all really ... Not all, but a very large majority, in my opinion, is about eCommerce. So, this is a very special or fun little version of a segment we call Is this new? Because none of it's new. I mean, right now, none of it is new. Crystal Carter: It's not new. Mordy Oberstein: It's all been around for a little bit, but it's all been reported on. But a lot of us might not be familiar, unless you're a ... I'll call it an SEO geek who's keeping up on this particular stuff regularly. And it's very particular type of SEO geek who's doing it, such as myself. Crystal Carter: His name is Mordy Oberstein. Mordy Oberstein: His name is Mordy. There are people out like Brian Fresberland, Brodie Clark, Glenn Gabe, Lily Ray, Marie Haynes. There are people out there- Mordy Oberstein: ... who are really into this stuff. It's like SEO voyeurism. What's changing on the SERP? Aha! Crystal Carter: It's like a little scavenger hunt and yeah, it's like- Mordy Oberstein: Love it, so much fun. Is this new? Is this new? But in this case it's not. But unless you're really keeping up on it, you may not know about it, but it's really important to know about. So it's a special eComm version of is this new? Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sorry. Mordy Oberstein: So, as mentioned, none of it's new. However, I want to point out a few really cool things that have been announced or talked about in the relatively recent pass around eComm. For example, Brian Fresberland caught this one. If it's carousel of items that's pre-owned, check this out. Google was testing a little green icons like a leaf. With pre-owned next to it. Crystal Carter: Right, which I think is actually really good. And I think this is probably them looking at how to compete with say, Facebook Marketplace. And there's a lot of pre-owned marketplaces, like Vinted is another one that is an app that does that sort of thing. I think they've given a green leaf to encourage people from an environmental point of view, but it's also useful, so people can understand that it's a secondhand thing, but it's still great. Mordy Oberstein: And it's also good if you're somebody who's selling something secondhand, instead of going to whatever you were going to before, I don't know, I've never really selled stuff secondhand in a long time. I guess, Facebook would be the main place for this. Oh, maybe I'll go and put it on ... I'll think of Google as a way to bring in traffic to sell my product. So, it's a signal to people selling stuff at the same time. Crystal Carter: Right, absolutely. I think it's a great opportunity and I think it's something that should help with the SERP and should help people to filter as well. It's a nice option to have it to be able to filter. If you think on eBay for instance, you can see brand new or you can see secondhand and that sort of thing. Mordy Oberstein: And Google's done this before, they have the ... for example, in hotel listings, you can see a separate filter for rentals, like Airbnb rentals. So, it's not a new thing for Google as a concept. Another one, Google announces officially that they're going to have coupon codes and you can copy and paste within a Google Business profile. So, if you're Macy's and you have a coupon code, you can list it there you there'll be a special button. It's already been live in some markets, where you just click on it, put in the coupon. It's a way of advertising your coupons on Google. Crystal Carter: Love coupons. I am entirely- Mordy Oberstein: Do you remember going to the store and cutting them out? Crystal Carter: Yes, yes. You'd get the newspaper and they was always like ... Pillsbury was always like, "Oh yeah." Right, Pillsbury were like, "You want cinnamon muffins?" I'm like, "Yes, I would love a cinnamon roll." It's just like you can get that cinnamon roll for really cheap. You're like, "Okay, well thank you very ... " Mordy Oberstein: But it's again, it's another way. Oh, the coupon code's right there. I'm not going to go to Amazon. I'm going to go to Google, check out, see if there's a coupon there. I'll clip it, use it. Good to go. Crystal Carter: I think this is another example of how eCommerce SEO often includes an ad element. So for instance, Google Merchant Center, they change around the requirements, but for a while it was a case where if you wanted to get on Google Merchant and have free shopping listings, you'd have to essentially make your site compliant for ads. Even if you weren't serving ads, you'd have to make your site compliant for ads in order to be active on Google Merchant. I think that elements like this, the coupon codes, you said it would go through Google Business profile for instance, that is essentially something that's a bit advertisingy but is going to help you get clicks, help you get conversions. And it's something that eCommerce SEOs would need to think about. I think it also is an example of some of the overlap between the disciplines. So in SEO, very often you won't stay in one lane as an SEO, you'll do a little bit of eComm, you'll do a little bit of local as well because I've done it before where I've worked with eComm clients and we were looking at both their local activity to drive in-store traffic, and also their online activity at the same time. And one supports the other. And those coupons, for instance, if they're adding it to Google Business profile, that means that they, they'll have a bricks and mortar location and that's something that will give them some visibility. And so, that's something where you would see an overlap. And it's also a great example of some of the elements that you have to think about as an eCommerce SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Okay, so the last one I want to talk about is Google announced Price Insights. Price Insights are coming for products. I actually like this, I love this because I think this is where Google's going to beat Amazon. Not that I'm rooting for one over the other, but if I'm watching Google try to do this and they're not being as successful as I think they want to be yet, maybe this is where it's going to come from. And you've seen price insights all over the SERP before. For example, flights. You search for a flight, Google will tell you that this is generally cheaper than it usually is. Or for hotels, the same kind of thing. And that's going to be coming for products, where you'll be able to see, yep, it's usually a thousand dollars but now it's here on Walmart for 700. That's a deal. And this is how Google took down, by the way, sites like Expedia, they didn't take them down. This is how Google won that battle. Sites like Expedia, Travelocity, or whatever, they're all about getting you to convert, get that flight in, book the ticket through us, we're going to get the money. And Google's like, "You know what we should do? Let's offer tons of insights around travel." And Expedia must have data about this, but they don't show it and Google are like, "We're just going to show it. We're going to use that." And they fill the need that no one was doing. And I think with products, it's the same thing. You go to Amazon, I don't know how much this normally costs. I don't know if it's a good price. I mean, I kind of know because I've been looking for a while, if I'm tracking it mentally, intuitively. But here's Google's going to do it and they're already doing it a little bit. So if you Google something, I don't know, Dell Inspiron 15, Google will list a model there and it'll have a whole ... a mobile, a whole bunch of listings where you can get it Amazon, Office Depot, Walmart, and it'll put in green the lowest price and it'll say usually X. So in this case it's saying in green on Amazon, it's $466 and it's usually $479. Those insights, the more they do, it's going to get people to go, "You know what, maybe I will buy it from Amazon, but first I'm going to go to Google and check out what the price insights are." Crystal Carter: Right, and I think that this is them using the data that they have. So, they'll be able to see what's going on across the web overall in a way that other folks will not be able to see. And they'll also have the information about the RRP from the SEO markup, because this is the other thing, within eCommerce for certain products, they'll have certain specifications. So, for instance, if you have apparel, if you're selling clothes, you have to categorize things in a certain way. You have to tag things in a certain way. You have to have certain attributes present on your page and they'll make those standard, so that they can enable these kinds of features. So they'll have that information available. And it's something that consumers love that saves you so much time of having to go back and forth to 17 different, sites rather than just being able to see it all in one place. That's going to save me a lot of time. I'm totally the kind of person who would shop around for three hours before making that decision. And so, if I can see it on one tab, that's really, really useful. Mordy Oberstein: I'm looking at it right here. My Apple MacBook Pro 16. Google's telling me typically is $2,099 to $2,699. And it lists a bunch of places where I can get it and the prices. Crystal Carter: Right, and it looks like you can sort it, move things up and down as well. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, you could dive in deeper. So here I'm clicking on Best Buy it's telling me what the normal ... there's free shipping from December 5th through December 7th and what the taxes are and there's whatever. And yeah, you can expand each one of these and get more information. It looks like it's an up down, so it's an expansion. There we go. Really, it's only going to get deeper and it's only going to get more prolific is one of my favorite words. Crystal Carter: It's a good word. Mordy Oberstein: Is a good word. It's a money word. Crystal Carter: It's a money word. It's a $5 word. Mordy Oberstein: Cha-ching. So is it new? None of this is new. It's going to be new with the Price Insights, it's going to be more and more and more. We're just seeing the very, very beginning of this, so I would keep a ... If you're in the eComm space, I would keep an eye on that. So it's new, but it's not new. But you may not have known about it. So for you, it's new. Crystal Carter: New to you, which is true. Mordy Oberstein: So this is new. Speaker 5: Yay. Mordy Oberstein: You know what else is new? News. News is always new. Otherwise, it wouldn't be news? It'd be old news, not news. Crystal Carter: Olds. It would be olds not news. Mordy Oberstein: Olds, Not new. So, here is a very new, it is new. The snappy news. Snappy news, snappy news, snappy news. I don't know where to start. There's so much news this week. Or in pop culture terms you might say, "Holy abundance of SEO news, Batman." Where do I even start? Well, let's start with this from Barry Schwartz over his search engine Roundtable. Google gives official names, some of SERP features with visual elements gallery. I love this thing. It's basically a visual breakdown of the Google results page, thereby introducing official and new terminology. For example, what we've always called an organic result, is now being called a text result. I have been screaming about this since literally 2019 when I interviewed Barry Schwartz on another SEO podcast. There needs to be formal names for these things because what I call it and what you call it, what that person calls it may actually be different. But now there are official names for these things. Check out the link of the show notes so you can see the visual gallery and understand what Google is calling all of the things. Okay, onwards on our path towards SEO news glory, this one from Matt Southern over at Search Engine Journal. Google December 2022 link spam update rolling out now. I mean, it might be complete by the time you hear this, but time of the recording it's rolling out now. Yes, another spam update. No, you're not wrong. Google did release one in October and this however, is really interesting because this time Google says quote, "SpamBrain is our AI-based spam prevention system. Besides using it to detect spam directly, it can now detect both sites buying links and sites used for the purpose of passing outgoing links." Does this have teeth? I don't know. I really hope so. The tracking tools have been pretty quiet, but with the spam update, that makes a lot of sense. So, the jury is still out. I would love to see this have some teeth. Either way, don't buy links. Last up. An update to the quality reader's guidelines, the guidelines given to manual evaluators so that Google can use it to check its algo against some real human input. This time Google has added another E to E-A-T. So E-A-T is expertise, authoritativeness and trustworthiness. But now it's not E-A-T, it's E-E-A-T. So it's not eat, it's eeat. I'm sorry for that. From the Lily Ray over Search Engine Land, E-E-A-T. Oh, it's a mouthful. E-E-A-T. And major updates to Google's quality radar guidelines. The new E here, by the way, is for experience, as in having some. Google has already added having firsthand experience to the guidelines around its product review update, the algorithm guidelines around the product review update, which makes me personally feel that Google is looking to see how well some of its algorithmic abilities are as compared to real human input. That's just my theory. That's just my theory. Anyway, have a look over the show notes. See what Lily wrote up. She really compares the old guidelines to the new guidelines. Take away some insights, create your own theories, and that'll do it for this week's snappy news. And we're back from the snappiest of snappiest news, wasn't that snappy? Crystal Carter: It's so snappy. Mordy Oberstein: Absolutely snappy. Crystal Carter: That's literally the snappiest news I've ever heard. Mordy Oberstein: Other than last week's snappy news. Crystal Carter: Yes, which was also snappy. Mordy Oberstein: Also snappy. Crystal Carter: And it might be snappy next week, I'm guessing? Mordy Oberstein: I love snapping. Crystal Carter: Snap, like the Jets and the Sharks. (singing) Mordy Oberstein: Right, the teachers ... I used to applaud the other teachers when they said something at school-wide meetings, you do the little snap thing. Crystal Carter: Did you go to a school for poetry? Mordy Oberstein: No, I was teaching at a public school in Baltimore. Crystal Carter: Well, was everyone poets? Because that's how poets clap, with snaps. Mordy Oberstein: I know. I don't know, it was a thing. Teachers are weird, we're just weird to be honest with you. Anyway, before we wrap it all up, and because we're talking about eCommerce and when it comes to talking about eCommerce and SEO. This week's follow of the week, so you can learn more about SEO awesomeness would be, the one, the only member of Wix's own SEO advisory board, Luke Carthy, @MrLukeCarthy over on Twitter. Crystal Carter: And Luke is fantastic. He's a great person to follow. He does talks, he does podcasts, he does these great deep dives into things that he would like to see from big retailers around eCommerce. And he's a fount of knowledge with regards to eCommerce. And yeah, he's a fantastic follow on Twitter and all of the other social media channels as well. Mordy Oberstein: And what I like about Luke is he talks about SEO and we'll talk about eComm at the same time. So, if you go to his website, which will link to his show notes obviously, he'll talk about SEO stuff but also talk about general eComm stuff. It's a nice follow-up because you're getting the best of both worlds. For example, on the actual Wix SEO Hub, he wrote about product descriptions, not from SEO point of view per se, but in general, about writing the best product description. So, that's why I think he's a great follow. Crystal Carter: He's a great follow. Mordy Oberstein: He's a great follow. So follow Luke @ MrLukeCarthy, M-R-L-U-K-E-C-A-R-T-H-Y. We'll link to another show notes, over on Twitter. And that's going to do it for this week's SERP's Up podcast. Crystal Carter: Thanks for joining us. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, that was money, right? Crystal Carter: That was money. I think we secured the bag. Mordy Oberstein: It's in the bag. Crystal Carter: It's in the bag. Mordy Oberstein: This episode is in the bag. Crystal Carter: Oh. Mordy Oberstein: More jokes, all the time. It never stops. Thank you for joining us on the SERP's Up podcast. Already going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with new episode. We dive into the deep dive, or not deep dive depending on how you look at it, that are site audits. How far down the wormhole do you need to go when auditing your next site? We'll talk about next week. Look for it wherever you consume your podcasts. Or on the Wix SEO Learning Hub at wix.com/SEO/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content webinars on the Wix SEO Learning Hub at, you guessed it, wix.com/SEO/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes, or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Ka-ching. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Kristina Azarenko Luke Carthy Tory Gray of Gray Dot Company Resources : SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Marketing Syrup News: Google Gives Official Names Of Some Search Features With Visual Elements Gallery Google December 2022 Link Spam Update Rolling Out Now E-E-A-T and major updates to Google’s quality rater guidelines Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Kristina Azarenko Luke Carthy Tory Gray of Gray Dot Company Resources : SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Marketing Syrup News: Google Gives Official Names Of Some Search Features With Visual Elements Gallery Google December 2022 Link Spam Update Rolling Out Now E-E-A-T and major updates to Google’s quality rater guidelines Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, mahalo for joining the SERP's Up podcast, where we're pushing out groovy, new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, head of SEO branding here at Wix and I'm joined by the fabulous, the wonderful, the incredible Crystal Carter, head of SEO communications here at Wix. Crystal Carter: At Wix. Isn't that a coincidence? Mordy Oberstein: It is. I feel like I know you from somewhere. Crystal Carter: It's from ... Mordy Oberstein: Have I seen you? You look so familiar, it's from Wix. Crystal Carter: From Wix, yeah. Mordy Oberstein: From Wix. Crystal Carter: That's very funny. Mordy Oberstein: That's funny. I've seen you in the hallway a couple of times. Crystal Carter: Yeah. And strangely enough, not at the hallways at Wix. Mordy Oberstein: Because we don't physically work together. Crystal Carter: No, but that's a wonderful thing about the modern world. I literally see you every day. Mordy Oberstein: Which reminds us, since you're talking about Wix, that the SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can now edit all of your SEO stuff. You know, robots, meta tags, title tags, meta-description, structure data and so forth, SEO stuff, with far greater ease than ever before. Check out the new Wix edit by page feature where you can get a look at all of the pages in the folder all at once and update all of the SEO stuff right there, without bouncing from page to page in the editor or dashboard. It's Wix SEO, where we make working on your larger sites easier than ever. All the SEO stuff. Crystal Carter: All the SEO stuff for all of y'all. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, I love the word y'all, by the way. So, I adopted that when I moved to Baltimore. My wife's in Baltimore. We lived there for a few years. I never knew what y'all was, because I'm from New York City. We don't have y'all, but y'all is amazing. Crystal Carter: It's a great word. And actually, actually people talk about it not being grammatically correct. However, it exists in lots of other languages. So, if you study Spanish for instance, [foreign language 00:02:03] is the plural you and that is what y'all is. Mordy Oberstein: Y'all. Crystal Carter: It's the plural you. It's also genderless, which is good. So, it's inclusive for everybody. Mordy Oberstein: It's wonderful. I love sending it out in email to people who are not from America. "Hey, y'all." As if they have any clue what I'm talking about. It's really a money word. Crystal Carter: Right, this is true. Mordy Oberstein: And you know what's money? This episode is going to be money. Not because there's any sort of cash transactions involved or anything… Yeah, it's disappointing, I know. But because talking eCommerce, SEO and- Crystal Carter: Cha-ching. Mordy Oberstein: I was going to make that sound effect, but you beat me to it. And the question is, how different is eCommerce SEO from regular SEO, really? Listen in as Crystal and I debate, go back and forth. Crystal Carter: Discuss. Mordy Oberstein: Maybe, we'll see. Between whether or not eComm SEO is really a separate discipline while we dive into the ins and out of eCommerce, SEO along the way, with tips to make sure that you get your eCommerce SEO, right. Kristina Azarenko also will stop by to share her tips around eCommerce, SEO and what moves the needle. Plus we'll dive into what's new on the eCommerce SERP. And of course, some snapping SEO news and who you should be following on social for more SEO awesomeness. Are you bought in? Because episode number 18 of the SERP's Up podcast is open for business. Crystal Carter: Oh, I like that. That was good. That was good. Mordy Oberstein: So many. Crystal Carter: That was good. Have you brought lots of SEO receipts? Mordy Oberstein: Ooh, I like that. I like that we're getting cornier by the minute. Crystal Carter: There's no stopping us. There's no stopping until we have completed the transaction. Mordy Oberstein: Each week it's going to ... Oh, you got me, I didn't really ... take a second, like whoosh right over my head. That exchange didn't go the way I thought it would. Crystal Carter: Well, but maybe we should lay it away for another day. Mordy Oberstein: We're really shipping it out here. Anyway, in SEO, so let me introduce this, because in SEO there are all sorts of disciplines. There's tech SEO and the people in tech SEO, they focus on crawlability and indexability. There are link builders or outreach specialists and they spend a whole lot of time building links and doing all other sorts of spammy things. Crystal Carter: They do lots of nice things as well. Mordy Oberstein: They do lots of nice things too. I'm really being not the greatest with that. There's also local SEO. Now, that's probably the most famous segment of SEO, and that makes a great deal of sense why there's a separate discipline and separate group of people who are local SEOs because, well, the algorithm is different. It's a whole separate area specialization. There's Google Business Profile, you have to know the ins and outs of that. There's getting your profile, your business listing, suspended accidentally and then reinstated. That's a whole separate discipline of SEO. So, it makes a great deal of sense why there is a separate discipline called local SEO and local SEOs who do local SEO. Now, once such area of SEO that's emerged over the last few years is eComm SEO or eCommerce SEO. Question is should eComm SEO be a separate area of SEO? I recall having a conversation with Tory Gray over at Gray Dot, and her take was, Well, eComm SEO, it's pretty much not that different from regular SEO, just more focused on the regular SEO tasks and greater concentration. So, I don't know, I guess you could slice ... I mean, you could break it down like this. Does eCommerce mean, eCommerce SEO, mean that you just need to be better at certain more common SEO tasks? Or is it a totally different mindset and a totally different outlook, with its own unique considerations? Crystal? Crystal Carter: I think it is. I think it's very unique. I think there's a reason why people look for SEOs who have eCommerce specialty. I think that it has to do with the type of content that you're dealing with. So, for instance, if you have an eCommerce website that is selling popcorn, like different varieties of popcorn, for instance, since we were talking about being corny, then I think that you're going to have lots of different products that are pretty much the same. So, a lot of your content is going to be very, very similar and you're going to need to differentiate them, but also make sure that they show in a sort of similar category of products at the same time. And so, you have to deal with categorization in a different way. You have to deal with duplicate content in a different way. You also have the responsibility of managing lots of user transactions. So, users need to be able to complete a purchase on an eCommerce site. So, this is great for SEOs because it's really easy to show ROI. If you do something on the blog, then you can track it to a basket somewhere. You can say, "Right, well that blog had an assisted conversion for this campaign," et cetera, et cetera. And that's all great. But it also means that from a technical point of view, you have to think about making sure that all of those things are tracked correctly and are linking up and working through, in a way that you don't have to think about when you're, say working in a lead gen space, or working in a publishing space, where there are no transactions that are taking place on the website. There's also the security factor. So people don't think about it, but eCommerce sites are essentially YMYL sites, your money or your life, because people are putting in their credit card details on your website. And if you have a loyalty scheme for instance, and they're also storing those details, people will have ... they'll store content and they'll store information about people and things like that. So, there's lots of things to consider. Lots of moving parts within an eCommerce website, which doesn't necessarily exist on a site that is purely more of brochure site where you're, say, publishing blogs about, I don't know, philosophy, or the stars, or whatever it may be. And you're essentially publishing content and you're looking at your traffic and that's it. That's all people are doing, people are looking at content or consuming content when people are actually carrying out a transaction. There's a whole different set of SEO responsibilities involved. Mordy Oberstein: So, this will be a good lesson for the SEO community as a whole. I respectfully disagree. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: That's okay. Well, I agree a lot. Wait, let me ... being hyperbolic, I agree with a lot of what you just said. I pretty much agree with everything you just said from a different point of view. Well, accept for one thing. I agree that there's a lot of different things that are going to come up because you're working on an eComm site. There's things you're going to have to deal with from anything from page fast and fast navigation to, as you mentioned, to tracking what's happening differently than you would say, with a blog. Although that's possible that a lot of those things also come up if you're working on a blog site, but probably not with the same frequency, or focus, or complexity. So, I agree with what you're saying, but I think, okay, to what extent is it really that different except for the YMYL thing, then I really disagree. Yes, I agree, it's YMYL. I have to agree. Google said it's YMYL. However, if you look at the rank fluctuation data going way back from all the data providers, you have health, you have finance, and you have shopping. Shopping doesn't show the same level of fluctuations as let's say, health or finance. Because content-wise, it's not YMYL. I think Google, to throw a John Mueller at you, has actually said that, but I got to find that for you, otherwise I'm talking out of my ... So, I agree with you. I think though that yes, if you're saying that in eComm, these things are way more in focus, but is that totally different than regular SEO? Crystal Carter: Yes, because of the moving parts. So, I agree that there's absolutely fundamentals that are transferrable. However, if you don't know how to manage product feeds, for instance, and if you don't know how to deal with Google Merchant and you don't know how to manage all of the images that are required for every single product and have to manage the schema markup for that. Mordy Oberstein: That was my next point. I was going to come around and say, I used to really disagree with this. I used to be like with Tory Gray, where like, eComm is the same, what are you talking about? Whatever. However, because you have things like Google Merchant Center and because the SERP itself is fundamentally changed on the eComm side, I am tending to move to your camp on this. Crystal Carter: Right, yeah. And I think that Google has- Mordy Oberstein: SERP is fundamentally different. Crystal Carter: Well, and also think the SERP is fundamentally different, there's an entirely different dedicated feed. Google treats it differently. So, they've created new shopping experiences online that have trends and all sorts of things. And also, the sites are configured differently. So, they're configured for distribution, with data feeds and things like that. And Google has an entirely separate, unique set of guidelines, specifically around eCommerce because of all of these different requirements. And with regards to the ranking fluctuations, I think probably most websites that are trading online, if you think about a big retailer, like a say, Zara, or Walmart, or Amazon, a lot of the baseline requirements for YMYL in place just in order to comply with legal requirements for selling online and locally as well. So, I think that that element of the YMYL part of it, is this an actually a safe place to put in your credit card details, I think should be fairly standard for most websites. I think that dodgy sellers will tend not to rank very well. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah and that is the fundamental difference, where shopping and say health are both YMYL and from the shopping point of view, getting the YMYL is, as you mentioned, relatively not that difficult, but on a health site it is. And that's because on a health site, the content is the YMYL. Where in the eComm site, it's the shopping experience that's the YMYL. So, you need to get the content right on the health site at a way different level, more detailed level than you would want to say on the shopping site. Because the shopping site, there is a product description and the product header, it's the shopping experience and how that functions that's the YMYL part. But yeah, and just to go back to the SERP part, in case you're not familiar, if you search for, I don't know, buy a new laptop, the SERP for that looks fundamentally different than, I don't know, what are the stars in Orion's Belt? And it looks very similar to a way the local SERP would look, where if you search for a pizza near me, where that SERP is very unique, the eComm SERP has become extremely unique. Whereas now, and in the past, by the way, you had PLAs, you had product listing ads and they're still there, but now you have organic carousels, even on desktop, it's Google pulling in, listing some Google's Merchant Center, Google Shopping onto the main SERP. So, if you're ranking 789 for buy new jeans, no one's seeing you because that shows underneath that massive carousel product listings. Crystal Carter: Right, exactly. And I think that this has to do with Google trying to make sure that the eCommerce experience on the SERP is very similar to an eCommerce experience for shopping, so that it's easy for people to see which things they can buy and so that the people think of it as a destination. I think with Google's appeal for this, has to do with some of the ways that people are searching. People have done a lot of studies around this and people don't always go to Google first for eCommerce queries. People will sometimes go to other websites for eCommerce queries. And so, Google is looking to be competitive with those sites and they're trying to make their SERP more like those sites. And in order to do that, they have a lot of mechanics behind them, different feeds and different category classifications, and different information behind the content, in order to make sure that they can serve it locally, so they can serve it on Google Shopping. So they can serve it in lots of different ways. And you have to configure your website in a certain way in order to be eligible for those features. Google has specific requirements so that you can show in Google Shopping and so that you can show in local inventory ads as well, that sort of thing. And making your website eligible for that is a specific tactic that you have to do as an eCommerce SEO. And it's something that's almost essential for eCommerce websites, in order to perform. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, so that's why fundamentally, I think I'm moving more to your camp because the SERP is fundamentally shifted in a way where you have to have a specialization in eComm to really understand what's happening in that space and to understand how to utilize the SERP because, and to what you mentioned, I think it's important people to realize Google's probably biggest competitor at this point in my personal opinion is Amazon. The web is becoming more eComm-centric. Google realizes that people are going and bypassing Google, they're going to Amazon and Google's doing whatever it can to take away that dynamic and things are going to be ... We're going to be talking about this in a few moments in our what's ... is this new section? Because this SERP is fundamentally shifting very, very quickly because of this. So honestly, if I had to offer you my top eComm SEO tip, if we watch what's happening on the results page itself, see what's there. If you're, I don't know, you're selling jeans, type in buy new jeans or whatever it is that you're selling, and actually look at what's showing up and how the SERP is formatted, because that's going to clue you in as to what you should be doing and if whether or not rankings are actually meaningful or not. Oh by the way, another point of order before we wrap this up and just a mistake I see all the time, all, all, all the time, Google can't read your texts and images. Google can only read text, text. So, if you have a really nice image, that's got really fancy calligraphy or whatever, and it's all talking about your products. And I've seen this by the way, with shipping details, order specifications instead of having actual text, it's in an image that you just upload to the page. Google can't read any of that. So please, if you're operating an eComm site, you're ... Yeah, eComm SEO, I'm going to dive into that, get rid of all your images, use actual text. Crystal Carter: And PDFs. They can read PDFs but they don't call them in the same way. So absolutely, make sure that any of your things are available on there as well. I think that Google's definitely moving towards visual search, but certainly not for understanding texts, but certainly not for your Ts and Cs at all. Mordy Oberstein: You have to write it out. You can have the image there also fine, whatever, looks nice, but you have to have text. But who also knows a lot about what moves the needle for eCommerce SEO, Kristina Azarenko, which is why she's here to tell us what moves the needle for eCommerce SEO. Kristina Azarenko: Well, I'd say that when it comes to technical SEO for eCommerce, there are many things in play. But what I see that works really well is internal linking. And many people just focus on building external links only and they don't control them, but they forget about internal links that they have full control of. Internal links are super, super important. They help to show hierarchy of the website and also distribute authority properly. Plus, they help Google to faster discover and index or re-index internal pages of the website. And it's especially critical for eCommerce because especially if you have dynamic stock with products going in stock and going out of stock, you want Google to pick this up real quickly. So, implementing internal linking is one of the best technical SEO tactics that will bring online stores results. Now, how do you do this at scale? Because we don't want to spend lots of time on implementing this manually on every single page. That's just not sustainable. So, we want to do this at scale. And when it comes to internal linking, what you can do, you can use link blocks depending on your page template. For example, level one category links to other level one categories as well as to the level two categories that belong to it. Then the level two category links back to level one category it belongs to, plus to other level two categories under this umbrella. So, think about it as a spider web that links all relevant pages of the website. And let's take a product page as an example. Then on a product page, you can have breadcrumbs linking to the categories and subcategories this product belongs to. And it's super cool for user experience as well because people want to know where they are, when they land on a product page. Then you can have link blocks featuring upsells and related products and I don't know, other products in this category, the imagination is endless honestly. So, it's a win-win situation here because it helps with internal linking on the one hand. And on the other hand, it helps to increase the average card value as well. So, use power of internal linking for sure. When it comes to eCommerce SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Kristina Azarenko, follow her on Twitter. Thank you so much, Kristina. She's at A-Z-A-R-C-H-I-C-K on Twitter. Will link to her Twitter profile in the show notes. She's a wonderful SEO, always putting out tons of insights and we really appreciate her taking the time to share her thoughts in eCommerce SEO with us. Crystal Carter: Thanks, Kristina. Mordy Oberstein: Thanks, Kristina. Well, speaking of eCommerce, SEO and the SERP, like we mentioned before, I know we hinted at what we're going to talk about now earlier. Well, here it is, everything ... Back in the day, when I used to really track SERP features very, very heavily as part of my job at the time, and a lot of what Google was changing back in the day, so we're saying, I don't know, circa 2016, 2017, even through 2018, was all about local SEO, local pack changes, local knowledge panel changes, local finder changes, a test over here, a test over there, hotel listings, testing that out and keeping track of all these things that Google was updating and changing, whether it was this button or this feature on the results page, was a way of understanding, hey, this is where Google's focused. Well, that focus has changed because today the focus seems to be all in on eComm. Google keeps testing this and updating that, and announcing this. And it's all really ... Not all, but a very large majority, in my opinion, is about eCommerce. So, this is a very special or fun little version of a segment we call Is this new? Because none of it's new. I mean, right now, none of it is new. Crystal Carter: It's not new. Mordy Oberstein: It's all been around for a little bit, but it's all been reported on. But a lot of us might not be familiar, unless you're a ... I'll call it an SEO geek who's keeping up on this particular stuff regularly. And it's very particular type of SEO geek who's doing it, such as myself. Crystal Carter: His name is Mordy Oberstein. Mordy Oberstein: His name is Mordy. There are people out like Brian Fresberland, Brodie Clark, Glenn Gabe, Lily Ray, Marie Haynes. There are people out there- Mordy Oberstein: ... who are really into this stuff. It's like SEO voyeurism. What's changing on the SERP? Aha! Crystal Carter: It's like a little scavenger hunt and yeah, it's like- Mordy Oberstein: Love it, so much fun. Is this new? Is this new? But in this case it's not. But unless you're really keeping up on it, you may not know about it, but it's really important to know about. So it's a special eComm version of is this new? Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sorry. Mordy Oberstein: So, as mentioned, none of it's new. However, I want to point out a few really cool things that have been announced or talked about in the relatively recent pass around eComm. For example, Brian Fresberland caught this one. If it's carousel of items that's pre-owned, check this out. Google was testing a little green icons like a leaf. With pre-owned next to it. Crystal Carter: Right, which I think is actually really good. And I think this is probably them looking at how to compete with say, Facebook Marketplace. And there's a lot of pre-owned marketplaces, like Vinted is another one that is an app that does that sort of thing. I think they've given a green leaf to encourage people from an environmental point of view, but it's also useful, so people can understand that it's a secondhand thing, but it's still great. Mordy Oberstein: And it's also good if you're somebody who's selling something secondhand, instead of going to whatever you were going to before, I don't know, I've never really selled stuff secondhand in a long time. I guess, Facebook would be the main place for this. Oh, maybe I'll go and put it on ... I'll think of Google as a way to bring in traffic to sell my product. So, it's a signal to people selling stuff at the same time. Crystal Carter: Right, absolutely. I think it's a great opportunity and I think it's something that should help with the SERP and should help people to filter as well. It's a nice option to have it to be able to filter. If you think on eBay for instance, you can see brand new or you can see secondhand and that sort of thing. Mordy Oberstein: And Google's done this before, they have the ... for example, in hotel listings, you can see a separate filter for rentals, like Airbnb rentals. So, it's not a new thing for Google as a concept. Another one, Google announces officially that they're going to have coupon codes and you can copy and paste within a Google Business profile. So, if you're Macy's and you have a coupon code, you can list it there you there'll be a special button. It's already been live in some markets, where you just click on it, put in the coupon. It's a way of advertising your coupons on Google. Crystal Carter: Love coupons. I am entirely- Mordy Oberstein: Do you remember going to the store and cutting them out? Crystal Carter: Yes, yes. You'd get the newspaper and they was always like ... Pillsbury was always like, "Oh yeah." Right, Pillsbury were like, "You want cinnamon muffins?" I'm like, "Yes, I would love a cinnamon roll." It's just like you can get that cinnamon roll for really cheap. You're like, "Okay, well thank you very ... " Mordy Oberstein: But it's again, it's another way. Oh, the coupon code's right there. I'm not going to go to Amazon. I'm going to go to Google, check out, see if there's a coupon there. I'll clip it, use it. Good to go. Crystal Carter: I think this is another example of how eCommerce SEO often includes an ad element. So for instance, Google Merchant Center, they change around the requirements, but for a while it was a case where if you wanted to get on Google Merchant and have free shopping listings, you'd have to essentially make your site compliant for ads. Even if you weren't serving ads, you'd have to make your site compliant for ads in order to be active on Google Merchant. I think that elements like this, the coupon codes, you said it would go through Google Business profile for instance, that is essentially something that's a bit advertisingy but is going to help you get clicks, help you get conversions. And it's something that eCommerce SEOs would need to think about. I think it also is an example of some of the overlap between the disciplines. So in SEO, very often you won't stay in one lane as an SEO, you'll do a little bit of eComm, you'll do a little bit of local as well because I've done it before where I've worked with eComm clients and we were looking at both their local activity to drive in-store traffic, and also their online activity at the same time. And one supports the other. And those coupons, for instance, if they're adding it to Google Business profile, that means that they, they'll have a bricks and mortar location and that's something that will give them some visibility. And so, that's something where you would see an overlap. And it's also a great example of some of the elements that you have to think about as an eCommerce SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Okay, so the last one I want to talk about is Google announced Price Insights. Price Insights are coming for products. I actually like this, I love this because I think this is where Google's going to beat Amazon. Not that I'm rooting for one over the other, but if I'm watching Google try to do this and they're not being as successful as I think they want to be yet, maybe this is where it's going to come from. And you've seen price insights all over the SERP before. For example, flights. You search for a flight, Google will tell you that this is generally cheaper than it usually is. Or for hotels, the same kind of thing. And that's going to be coming for products, where you'll be able to see, yep, it's usually a thousand dollars but now it's here on Walmart for 700. That's a deal. And this is how Google took down, by the way, sites like Expedia, they didn't take them down. This is how Google won that battle. Sites like Expedia, Travelocity, or whatever, they're all about getting you to convert, get that flight in, book the ticket through us, we're going to get the money. And Google's like, "You know what we should do? Let's offer tons of insights around travel." And Expedia must have data about this, but they don't show it and Google are like, "We're just going to show it. We're going to use that." And they fill the need that no one was doing. And I think with products, it's the same thing. You go to Amazon, I don't know how much this normally costs. I don't know if it's a good price. I mean, I kind of know because I've been looking for a while, if I'm tracking it mentally, intuitively. But here's Google's going to do it and they're already doing it a little bit. So if you Google something, I don't know, Dell Inspiron 15, Google will list a model there and it'll have a whole ... a mobile, a whole bunch of listings where you can get it Amazon, Office Depot, Walmart, and it'll put in green the lowest price and it'll say usually X. So in this case it's saying in green on Amazon, it's $466 and it's usually $479. Those insights, the more they do, it's going to get people to go, "You know what, maybe I will buy it from Amazon, but first I'm going to go to Google and check out what the price insights are." Crystal Carter: Right, and I think that this is them using the data that they have. So, they'll be able to see what's going on across the web overall in a way that other folks will not be able to see. And they'll also have the information about the RRP from the SEO markup, because this is the other thing, within eCommerce for certain products, they'll have certain specifications. So, for instance, if you have apparel, if you're selling clothes, you have to categorize things in a certain way. You have to tag things in a certain way. You have to have certain attributes present on your page and they'll make those standard, so that they can enable these kinds of features. So they'll have that information available. And it's something that consumers love that saves you so much time of having to go back and forth to 17 different, sites rather than just being able to see it all in one place. That's going to save me a lot of time. I'm totally the kind of person who would shop around for three hours before making that decision. And so, if I can see it on one tab, that's really, really useful. Mordy Oberstein: I'm looking at it right here. My Apple MacBook Pro 16. Google's telling me typically is $2,099 to $2,699. And it lists a bunch of places where I can get it and the prices. Crystal Carter: Right, and it looks like you can sort it, move things up and down as well. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, you could dive in deeper. So here I'm clicking on Best Buy it's telling me what the normal ... there's free shipping from December 5th through December 7th and what the taxes are and there's whatever. And yeah, you can expand each one of these and get more information. It looks like it's an up down, so it's an expansion. There we go. Really, it's only going to get deeper and it's only going to get more prolific is one of my favorite words. Crystal Carter: It's a good word. Mordy Oberstein: Is a good word. It's a money word. Crystal Carter: It's a money word. It's a $5 word. Mordy Oberstein: Cha-ching. So is it new? None of this is new. It's going to be new with the Price Insights, it's going to be more and more and more. We're just seeing the very, very beginning of this, so I would keep a ... If you're in the eComm space, I would keep an eye on that. So it's new, but it's not new. But you may not have known about it. So for you, it's new. Crystal Carter: New to you, which is true. Mordy Oberstein: So this is new. Speaker 5: Yay. Mordy Oberstein: You know what else is new? News. News is always new. Otherwise, it wouldn't be news? It'd be old news, not news. Crystal Carter: Olds. It would be olds not news. Mordy Oberstein: Olds, Not new. So, here is a very new, it is new. The snappy news. Snappy news, snappy news, snappy news. I don't know where to start. There's so much news this week. Or in pop culture terms you might say, "Holy abundance of SEO news, Batman." Where do I even start? Well, let's start with this from Barry Schwartz over his search engine Roundtable. Google gives official names, some of SERP features with visual elements gallery. I love this thing. It's basically a visual breakdown of the Google results page, thereby introducing official and new terminology. For example, what we've always called an organic result, is now being called a text result. I have been screaming about this since literally 2019 when I interviewed Barry Schwartz on another SEO podcast. There needs to be formal names for these things because what I call it and what you call it, what that person calls it may actually be different. But now there are official names for these things. Check out the link of the show notes so you can see the visual gallery and understand what Google is calling all of the things. Okay, onwards on our path towards SEO news glory, this one from Matt Southern over at Search Engine Journal. Google December 2022 link spam update rolling out now. I mean, it might be complete by the time you hear this, but time of the recording it's rolling out now. Yes, another spam update. No, you're not wrong. Google did release one in October and this however, is really interesting because this time Google says quote, "SpamBrain is our AI-based spam prevention system. Besides using it to detect spam directly, it can now detect both sites buying links and sites used for the purpose of passing outgoing links." Does this have teeth? I don't know. I really hope so. The tracking tools have been pretty quiet, but with the spam update, that makes a lot of sense. So, the jury is still out. I would love to see this have some teeth. Either way, don't buy links. Last up. An update to the quality reader's guidelines, the guidelines given to manual evaluators so that Google can use it to check its algo against some real human input. This time Google has added another E to E-A-T. So E-A-T is expertise, authoritativeness and trustworthiness. But now it's not E-A-T, it's E-E-A-T. So it's not eat, it's eeat. I'm sorry for that. From the Lily Ray over Search Engine Land, E-E-A-T. Oh, it's a mouthful. E-E-A-T. And major updates to Google's quality radar guidelines. The new E here, by the way, is for experience, as in having some. Google has already added having firsthand experience to the guidelines around its product review update, the algorithm guidelines around the product review update, which makes me personally feel that Google is looking to see how well some of its algorithmic abilities are as compared to real human input. That's just my theory. That's just my theory. Anyway, have a look over the show notes. See what Lily wrote up. She really compares the old guidelines to the new guidelines. Take away some insights, create your own theories, and that'll do it for this week's snappy news. And we're back from the snappiest of snappiest news, wasn't that snappy? Crystal Carter: It's so snappy. Mordy Oberstein: Absolutely snappy. Crystal Carter: That's literally the snappiest news I've ever heard. Mordy Oberstein: Other than last week's snappy news. Crystal Carter: Yes, which was also snappy. Mordy Oberstein: Also snappy. Crystal Carter: And it might be snappy next week, I'm guessing? Mordy Oberstein: I love snapping. Crystal Carter: Snap, like the Jets and the Sharks. (singing) Mordy Oberstein: Right, the teachers ... I used to applaud the other teachers when they said something at school-wide meetings, you do the little snap thing. Crystal Carter: Did you go to a school for poetry? Mordy Oberstein: No, I was teaching at a public school in Baltimore. Crystal Carter: Well, was everyone poets? Because that's how poets clap, with snaps. Mordy Oberstein: I know. I don't know, it was a thing. Teachers are weird, we're just weird to be honest with you. Anyway, before we wrap it all up, and because we're talking about eCommerce and when it comes to talking about eCommerce and SEO. This week's follow of the week, so you can learn more about SEO awesomeness would be, the one, the only member of Wix's own SEO advisory board, Luke Carthy, @MrLukeCarthy over on Twitter. Crystal Carter: And Luke is fantastic. He's a great person to follow. He does talks, he does podcasts, he does these great deep dives into things that he would like to see from big retailers around eCommerce. And he's a fount of knowledge with regards to eCommerce. And yeah, he's a fantastic follow on Twitter and all of the other social media channels as well. Mordy Oberstein: And what I like about Luke is he talks about SEO and we'll talk about eComm at the same time. So, if you go to his website, which will link to his show notes obviously, he'll talk about SEO stuff but also talk about general eComm stuff. It's a nice follow-up because you're getting the best of both worlds. For example, on the actual Wix SEO Hub, he wrote about product descriptions, not from SEO point of view per se, but in general, about writing the best product description. So, that's why I think he's a great follow. Crystal Carter: He's a great follow. Mordy Oberstein: He's a great follow. So follow Luke @ MrLukeCarthy, M-R-L-U-K-E-C-A-R-T-H-Y. We'll link to another show notes, over on Twitter. And that's going to do it for this week's SERP's Up podcast. Crystal Carter: Thanks for joining us. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, that was money, right? Crystal Carter: That was money. I think we secured the bag. Mordy Oberstein: It's in the bag. Crystal Carter: It's in the bag. Mordy Oberstein: This episode is in the bag. Crystal Carter: Oh. Mordy Oberstein: More jokes, all the time. It never stops. Thank you for joining us on the SERP's Up podcast. Already going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with new episode. We dive into the deep dive, or not deep dive depending on how you look at it, that are site audits. How far down the wormhole do you need to go when auditing your next site? We'll talk about next week. Look for it wherever you consume your podcasts. Or on the Wix SEO Learning Hub at wix.com/SEO/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content webinars on the Wix SEO Learning Hub at, you guessed it, wix.com/SEO/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes, or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Ka-ching. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

Blog-turned-business ranks for thousands of keywords “Thanks to Wix’s intuitive SEO tools, I’ve been able to focus my time on writing quality content that helps me drive organic traffic.” 30K Organic monthly traffic 7,863 Keywords ranked 64 Featured snippets Adriane Campos has dedicated her life’s work to researching sugar alternatives, all with the goal of empowering people to make informed decisions and ultimately lead healthier lives. After years of intensive knowledge gathering, she was finally ready to share her findings with the world. Only one question remained: How would the world find her website? The business A guide to the plethora of sweeteners sold across the United States, WhatSugar.com is a goldmine of information for anyone looking to consume less sugar in their diet. Pioneered by Adriane Campos, who describes herself as a chemical engineer, food technologist, mom and wife, the blog’s unique value is that it translates “science-speak" into digestible tips that can help home cooks make sense of the sweetener aisle. Adriane added to her chemical engineering expertise by earning a graduate degree in food technology in Curitiba, Brazil, before moving to Los Angeles to conduct research at Caltech under the mentoring of a Nobel Prize winner. However, it was when she took a hiatus to raise her family that the idea for WhatSugar.com was born. “I was often asked what I did in my previous life before becoming a mom to two kids,” she recalls. “Without fail, whenever I would tell people that I did years of research on sweeteners, I always got the very same question: “What’s the best sweetener?” And so, I launched the WhatSugar website to finally answer it.” To get those answers, Adriane went down what she calls “the sweetener rabbit hole”: “I gathered information from different sweetener websites. I deconstructed the front and back of sweetener packages—ingredients, nutrition facts, label claims. And I personally contacted countless manufacturers and sellers to find all the details about their products,” she lists. This meticulous research formed the basis for her blog-turned-business. She now offers three main digital products: a free resource which is the Sugar Alternative Shopping Guide, the entry-point product Sugar Swap Starter Kit, and her core offering which is Sugar Alternative School. She has also recently pivoted into selling physical sweeteners directly to customers. The SEO challenge While Adriane was clearly an authority on sweeteners, she was new to the world of SEO. What would the point of all her years of research be if her findings never reached the very people who were searching for it? There was no two ways about it: SEO had to become a key focus for her business. The solution Wix proved to be the perfect platform for an expert blogger like Adriane. With built-in tools to help her take care of SEO, the food technologist and author is free to focus on what she does best: creating quality content that resonates with her target audience. This has played an essential role in allowing her to build up authority for search engines, and in turn, this helps her site reel in impressive amounts of organic traffic. Adriane also followed the Wix SEO Setup Checklist, customizing her site’s meta tags, URL structure, canonical tags, structured data markup, and more. “ I never hired anyone to do the SEO part of my website, I just followed Wix guidelines: I named images with ranking keywords, filled out all the SEO Basics and entered the keywords in the Advanced SEO section,” she describes. Wix’s SEO tools work out-of-the-box, giving Adriane the ability to spend less time on SEO and more time on content optimization. “With the feedback from my WhatSugar readers, I’m constantly discovering things I don’t know,” she enthuses. “And that has been a huge help for me in refining my content and making my products crystal clear for newbies. I’ve now launched my core offer twice and I’m currently working on making it evergreen.” The results Adriane officially launched WhatSugar.com in 2019. Within weeks, impressions and site visits were soaring. With time, she was ranking for thousands of keywords and had dozens of featured snippets. As of Q1 2023, WhatSugar.com : Experienced a 400% increase in users Gained 5.49M impressions in the previous 90 days Ranked for 7.8K keywords Earned 64 featured snippets One particular win for Adriane is ranking for the keyword “erythritol” (a natural sugar substitute), which Semrush classifies as a difficult keyword to rank for. WhatSugar drives around 7K visitors every month from this one keyword. “I didn’t know much about SEO but Wix turned out to be exactly the launchpad I needed to help get my content seen.” Want to spend less time on SEO and more time crafting quality content? Check out Wix’s intuitive SEO tools and explore our SEO Learning Hub for more insights from industry experts. Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

Is your content random and haphazard? How do you create a formal content strategy to drive efficient growth? Already have a content strategy? How do you adjust your content strategy to continue to get the best results? Wix’s Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter, look into building a content strategy for SEO and beyond with special guest host Adriana Stein, CEO of AS Marketing. It’s 2023, so what’s a content and SEO strategy without AI! Crystal and Mordy explore how Bing AI has changed — or maybe not so much. Full steam ahead as Episode 41 of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast gets all up in your content strategy! Back How to build a content strategy: SEO and beyond Is your content random and haphazard? How do you create a formal content strategy to drive efficient growth? Already have a content strategy? How do you adjust your content strategy to continue to get the best results? Wix’s Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter, look into building a content strategy for SEO and beyond with special guest host Adriana Stein, CEO of AS Marketing. It’s 2023, so what’s a content and SEO strategy without AI! Crystal and Mordy explore how Bing AI has changed — or maybe not so much. Full steam ahead as Episode 41 of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast gets all up in your content strategy! Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 41 | June 7, 2023 | 36 MIN 00:00 / 36:25 This week’s guests Adrian Stein Originally from the US and now living in Germany, Adriana Stein is the CEO and founder of the marketing agency AS Marketing. She leads a team of multi-language SEO experts who develop holistic international marketing strategies for global companies. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting, welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, Mahalo for joining the SERP's Up Podcast. We're pushing out some groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the Head of SEO Branding here at Wix. I'm joined by the adjective laden, Head of SEO Communications, Crystal Carter. A good adjective laden. Good adjective laden. Crystal Carter: That is the laziest one I've ever heard. It's like when I'm saying like, oh, this is a... And I just do like seven fire emojis. Because I'm like, insert fantastic adjective, whatever it may be that you choose based on the fire emoji, it's fire. Mordy Oberstein: I'm just out of adjectives. I don't know what to say anymore because each week it's the incredible, fantastic... The adjective laden. Crystal Carter: Well, thank you for a fantastic, stupendous, incredible, marvelous, Mordy-licious introduction. Thank you. Mordy Oberstein: It's not easy. The last one you got stuck like, where do I go now? And you say, is it time to stop? Crystal Carter: Yeah, this is true. Although to be fair though, your name starts with the name an M, so there's like marvelous, marvelous Mordy, magnificent Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: Mania. Crystal Carter: Mordy Mania. Anyway. Mordy Oberstein: This SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can not only subscribe to our monthly newsletter, searchlight over at wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but it's also where you can manage your content all in one place connected to datasets and more with the Wix content manager, so that you can dutifully execute both your SEO and content strategies. As today we're talking about both. Your SEO and content strategies. See the connection? Crystal Carter: Yes, I do see the connection. They're connected very, very well. Mordy Oberstein: Quite explicitly. I don't say so myself. Crystal Carter: It's almost like you wrote it. Mordy Oberstein: It's almost like we wrote that part of the... Yes, that's right. Today we're diving into the overlap between SEO and content marketing at the strategic level as we look at building a content strategy for SEO and beyond things like our SEO content and content marketing strategy, the same different, kind of the same, kind of different kind of not the same. Where do you start including your content and SEO content strategies, and how do you refine your strategy along the way to help us dive into that, we have a very special guest, hope stopping by in just a few minutes. And Adriana Stein, the CEO and founder of AS Marketing. Plus we're talking content, and if it's 2023 and we're talking content, we're talking about AI and AI and content. So we're going to explore how AI content produced or rather content produced by AI content generators in search engines as changed. And of course, the snappiest of SEO news for you and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. So while the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry, that doesn't apply to us because we're fricking SEOs and marketers. So hey, we're marketers here. These rules don't apply to us. So full steam ahead and full planning ahead as episode number 41 of the SERP's Up SEO Podcast gets all up in your strategy. Crystal Carter: Let's go. Mordy Oberstein: Let's go. So content strategies, in my opinion, are Jackson Pollock paintings. It seems kind of like chaos, but underneath I think there's some semblance of... Or should it be some semblance of order and planning that goes underneath it. Crystal Carter: That's true. This is sounds like somebody who's seen a Jackson painting in real life. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, real? Crystal Carter: I have. They're actually gigantic. And actually when you see them, you do see that actually it isn't just chaos. Mordy Oberstein: It does make sense. My first association to him was watching the movie with Ed Harris, but I was think like 10 or 11 when it came out. I am not sure that was appropriate for me to be watching, but either way kind of explains a few things. Chaos or planning rather, can easily become chaos, which means that the execution of the planning gets a hard thing to get. It also means that plans change, and I'm a firm believer that if your plan doesn't change, you're not doing it right. If you start with a content plan and you go through without any adjustment, you're probably doing something wrong. But what do these plans look like? Where does an SEO content plan fit in with the overall content plan? And for you pure content folks, where does a general content plan kind of play yourself out within the SEO strategy? So basically, what does a planning thing look like and how do you not just wing it? And to help us tackle all of this, put your hands together for the founder of AS marketing. Adriana Stein, welcome to the SERP's Up Podcast. Adriana Stein: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Crystal Carter: Yay, we're so pleased to have you along, big fan of your work. Adriana Stein. Adriana and I are both members of the Women in Tech SEO group. Adriana Stein: Yes. Crystal Carter: And we've both attended the Women in Tech SEO conferences and mutual appreciation here on the podcast for the work that Adriana is doing, particularly on content but also on some amazing things, and also being the founder and director of your own agency there. Fantastic. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Tell us about that. Adriana Stein: Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so AS Marketing, we specialize in multi-language marketing, so we're a full service agency. Our projects tend to actually split between PPC and SEO. It started out being a lot more SEO focused, but now it's kind of interesting. There's a pretty widespread demand for multi-language international marketing, and that's where we basically come in and help our clients expand into new markets with localization. So it can be Germany to the US or the UK to the EU, or some sort of combination of madness like this. And we work with native speakers to help localize all of the strategy, implement, optimize everything and ensure there's conversions of some sort. So leads or sales, whether you're B2C or B2B, then that's where we're able to help. So a lot of content goes into that. Crystal Carter: And a lot of planning- Adriana Stein: And a lot of different places. A lot of planning. Crystal Carter: A lot of planning. And I think you've contributed a really great article on localization and content localization. And one of the things that comes up with that is that when you're planning that content, you're planning to make it in whatever is your X default language, but also planning to roll it out to other languages and also to maintain it across all of that. Do you have any sort of insights or experience that you can share on that? Adriana Stein: Yeah, so I think the first thing I would start off by saying is be really cautious with mass translations. That's one of the things that we first talk through with all of our clients. I will say talk through, because sometimes it's a top-down decision that they're like, okay, we're just going to copy paste everything we've been doing in the US and then we're just going to do that in Germany and then we will just work like that. And we don't have a say in anything, but ideally there is some sort of separate strategy per each market, and it doesn't have to be in incredibly minute detail. If you have the budget, the resources for that, great. I mean, you're probably going to get a better return on investment that way. But starting off at least try to have a little bit of separate understanding for each market and how it performs because every culture is different, every language is different. People phrase things in different ways. The buying cycle is very different in different markets. And so in terms of planning, really it's one, having an understanding of, okay, how am I going to go into this market effectively? And making sure you have the mindset, the operational mindset as a business to do that, and then that you also find the right strategic support, the right type of people to help you do that. So whether that's an agency or whether you do that in-house, it's really ideal that you work with someone who understands that market. It can really help you localize the strategy for that. And that's regardless of the channel. So whether that's SEO, whether that's Google Ads, LinkedIn, whatever the case may be, the more localized you can make everything, then the stronger the strategy is going to be because it's more personalized. The reason I always will say that this is going to be more efficient in the end is because think about the local competitors that you have in that country or in that market. They're already doing that anyways. So if you go in with that reduced sort of customer experience in comparison with the local markets, with the local competitors, they're not going to get very far. So you've basically got to outperform them from the get-go if you want to make an impact. Mordy Oberstein: To sort of zoom out on this. How much of that is... When you're creating all this content, whether it's in this market or that market or multiple markets all at one time, how much overlap is there in the strategy itself overall between the different... I'll call them verticals, whether it's content marketing, SEO, PPC, whatever it is? Adriana Stein: Yeah, there's a ton. I mean, ideally there should be a ton and no silo. In some companies there is unfortunately a silo if you have a lot of different teams that have different goals. But the best case scenario is when all of the content strategy holistically performs together. So I think it's important to kind of zoom out on content, and a lot of us perceive content purely for SEO purposes, but content is also for landing pages, for PPC case studies. White papers especially for B2B are important as well. Videos, music, I don't know anything that people produce in relation to a brand or even the customers or the users talk about that brand that is all content. So all of that can really come together to form what is the content strategy for a brand. Crystal Carter: I absolutely agree. I had a client who used to get a lot of traffic from some of their offsite assets from some of their IRL assets. They had a particular product and it needed instructions, and the way that you could get instructions was, there was a QR code or something that was in the back of the package and we used to get tons of traffic from that. So yeah, it's important to think about keeping the content strategy and the content strategy consistent, the content consistent across all of those different touch points. Can you give any insight for how to make sure you've got a common thread going through your content strategy? Adriana Stein: I think there are two things there. One is communication. Communication is going to be easier in a smaller company than in a bigger company. But if you can in a bigger company and you have separate departments, like a separate maybe advertising team, even a separate brand team, separate SEO team, just communicate all the time about here's what we're doing, here's how we're using this, because then you can repurpose all of that content that's produced too. It shouldn't just be used on one channel. And then the other thing really is the KPIs. It should be that everyone is working together on the same goal. So that really is a reason to then communicate, here's how our work is performing here. Here's how your work is performing here. How is that helping our overarching goal? And then involving sales and that as well is really ideal, especially in B2B, and to get everyone working toward that same goal because then you find that the content you produce can be used in all facets of every part of everyone's work. And that really helps keep everything very consistent too. Mordy Oberstein: I always say content is your brand, whatever medium it is, whether it's video, image or actual words, that is your brand, that's how you're commuting yourself to the public. There's like no other way. There's no audio language or anything like that. It has to be content. Do you find that your pure content strategy and your SEO content strategy are sort of converging together? I'll give you a good example of what I mean by this. I find that what users want and what search engines want both in terms of stylistically, I think users or people, I hate that people are looking for more conversational types of content from brands opposed to marketing schlock, and I think that ties into things around experience and expertise that Google's looking for. At the same time, they kind of very much align. Do you find that's happening more and more in 2023 than it did in years past? Adriana Stein: Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you've heard this concept of analysis paralysis because it just means that there's so much information out there and so many options to choose that people do a lot of research, a lot of research before they buy something, even a lower price type product. You're looking at reviews, you're looking at prices, you're probably looking at multiple brands to try to understand what's best for you and trying to find a way through a bit of all of the madness. And I think the best way that brands can really do that with content is trying to help them rather than just pushing people towards a sale, but just try to help them make an informed decision because the less that you push, then the more they're likely to trust you and they're going to purchase from you anyways. Sometimes even if the pricing is higher, then the trust factor plays a much bigger role than that. Mordy Oberstein: Good point. Crystal Carter: So I was thinking when you were saying about the analysis paralysis, it made me think of the reason why I shop at Little. So I shop at Little because they don't have 3 million different types of peanut butter. They have chunky and they have smooth, and I know that they have generally decent quality stuff. So whether it's chunky or smooth, whichever one I pick, it's probably going to be fine, but what I want is peanut butter. But at the end of the day, I know that there's a general sort of quality level for them. How do you deliver that sort of quality, maintain that sort of quality with the demands of quantity for content? So to be competitive online at the moment, you know, have to keep feeding the algorithm and keep feeding the algorithm, whether you're on social, whether you're on your website, et cetera, et cetera. How do you maintain that quality while you're rolling out the quantity of content that you need to make a splash? Adriana Stein: Yeah, I mean that's honestly like a million-dollar question today I must say. But I think to answer it simply, it really comes down to processes. So if you have very streamlined processes, everyone knows what they're supposed to do, at which stage, by which date, how much you're trying to produce over a certain timeframe, who needs to have input on something? Ideally the less people the better, because if you have six people editing, this is one of the biggest roadblocks that I've seen to installing content is when you just have too many brains and they're trying to make sense of everything and it just takes way too long. So really processes is what it comes down to, and that will help you get that quality because there will be someone like a content strategist of some sort depending on the channel who's kind of overseeing quality, maybe some sort of project manager who's assigning things, telling people which part of the project they're supposed to do, which sort of task they're supposed to do, and just really aligning everyone on all of that. That's really the biggest thing. So if you don't have some sort of really clear checklist, here's our one to 10 steps, here's doing what, it just gets so random chaos and then you end up not producing a lot of content, the process is key. Mordy Oberstein: So to that process though, I think one of the things that's interesting to me is that when you're dealing with multiple teams and multiple pieces of content and multiple strategies, and what I inevitably find, and we talked about this on a previous podcast, there's a certain momentum at a certain cadence that you get. And then as that happens, new opportunities arise, new ways of thinking come about, new pain points are unearth, all of a sudden the brain starts flowing and you start thinking differently as things evolve. How do you refine along the way? How do you make sure you're open to refining along the way? Then how do you actually steer that because you're working with assets you've been planning on for so long that now you might have to reshift though with multiple teams and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It all seems like trying to make a giant U-turn and you're the Titanic. Adriana Stein: Oh yeah, I can relate to that- Mordy Oberstein: Iceberg. Adriana Stein: I would say really it still comes down to processes because it's about also adding that part in the process. So when is there a regular optimization happening or how often are content topics created and how? Is it one brainstorming session a month? Everyone's got to come there with their ideas and that's it, really stick to that. Or is it every three months we're doing an audit on this sort of thing, or every six months we're doing an audit on this sort of thing, or I don't know, maybe there's a new service offering. And so we need to understand, okay, how do we implement this with the rest of the content so that the messaging is consistent? We're still talking about both things, but there's different pain points that still is part of the optimization process. So I would say really just add space for that in this content production checklist. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great point. Do you ever find though that there's parts of the strategy that are at odds with each other? So let's go back to the example of things are getting more conversational out there with brands. That's great. And you may say, you know what? We need to pivot. We need to become more conversational. And I can imagine an SEO saying, wait, wait, but the age two needs to have the keyword. You don't have the keyword now. Now what do we do? Adriana Stein: Well, yeah, I think that's the bane of every SEO's existence is like, how do we create really great content but that's still adheres to SEO formatting? Which is so strict in particular. It's very, very difficult to find a balance of both. But I think if you can try to focus, for example, content ideation, even if it's something conversational based on, okay, how from the beginning can we apply this to SEO? So not that SEO is a later stage in the content strategy, but it's really at the forefront. And I think that's one of the biggest channels that needs to be at the forefront because if you can think of, okay, this content group, content cluster or something like this, this can work really well for SEO and then here's how we're going to do the rest of the content in relation to that. We're going to link to some conversion mining pages. Maybe we're going to link to a lead magnet off of this page, and then that can be used for email marketing later to capture some emails like this. So put it directly within your content strategy, your content planning, and that will help that a little bit be a bit more natural. Because if SEO comes so much later down, you've got a content strategy and then three months later you're like, okay, let's do SEO and let's try to shove the SEO into this content strategy, then you're going to have some difficulties putting those keywords properly. Crystal Carter: And I think that it can be a challenge to build that in. What role do you consider education to play in making sure that your wider team are able to do some of that SEO as they go along or so are able to keep SEO in the forefront of their minds as they're creating even that more sort of conversational or reactionary content? Adriana Stein: Yeah, that's a good question. So what we use on our team is briefs. We use really, really detailed briefs for our content writers. I would say even a lot of the content is kind of half written. It's not elegantly written. That's what the writer is there to kind of help us refine, maybe dig in with some of the research a bit further. But what we provide the content writer, which comes from the strategist who knows the overarching business strategy, how this fits into the content strategy at hand, then they're creating a very, very detailed brief for the writer. So the writer really knows, okay, here's how this fits into SEO. Here's what I'm supposed to write in relation to the structure of the content. So what goes into each section focuses of the keywords so they know, and it comes off very naturally when you do it this way because then it's not asking the content writer to just add, I don't know like, say this keyword, write this keyword 20 times into this content. That doesn't work. That sort of way of doing SEO I think is really outdated. It's a lot about coming from the top down, putting SEO into the business strategy and then creating content topics based on that, and then briefing the writer based on that. And then all of the processes is a lot more natural. And it's not a struggle for the writer to do that. Mordy Oberstein: If there's like one consistent theme. It's the planning all the way throughout. Adriana Stein: Yes, it is. Mordy Oberstein: And it's such a good point because if the overlap between content and SEO was that much stronger, you really need to loop in the SEO into the full content process all the way down. It just makes so much sense. We could probably dive into way more of this, but I know that your time is short and extremely valuable, so we'll let you get back to creating all of that great content. But where can people find you first? Adriana Stein: Best place would be on LinkedIn probably. So feel free to send me a message. You can just type in my name, Adrian Stein, you'll find me there. I'm also on Twitter too if you're really keen on still using that Wild Wild West platform these days. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I guess it beat Mastodon. Adriana Stein: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Sorry Simon. Crystal Carter: But thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure. And yes, I'm getting the hint that process... It's all about the process. Adriana Stein: Yep. It's all about the process. Mordy Oberstein: Trust the process, trust the process with- Adriana Stein: I will probably be saying this from my grave, look at your process- Crystal Carter: It was the process. Mordy Oberstein: He trusted the process. Well, thank you so much Adriana, showed a link to your social profiles in the show notes for this episode, so you can keep getting awesomeness from Adriana out there on social media. Thank you, Adriana. Adriana Stein: Thanks so much for having me. Super pleasure. Mordy Oberstein: Bye. Adriana Stein: Bye. Mordy Oberstein: So speaking of plans and content plans and content plans, changing and planning and the planning and the planning, one thing that's constantly changing and I think where people are pivoting or platforms are pivoting with their content would be AI content generators. By the way, we're talking about content, does any other content even exist other than content written by AI generators? The answer was, I hope so. Crystal Carter: I hope so. Mordy Oberstein: I hope so Crystal Carter: Yes, absolutely. Mordy Oberstein: But be that as it may and your stance on AI aside, it is super interesting what the search engines are doing with integrating AI chat experiences and how changing they are. And Bing actually has made some really interesting changes to their AI chat experience. So while we usually go Google this time, we're going Bing. Speaker 5: And it's going. Google. It's outta here. Mordy Oberstein: Recently, relatively recently, Bing made an update. It was covered by Search Engine Land & Search Engine Roundtable, both by Barry Schwartz back on April 21st, where Bing wrote quote, we've taken steps to help Bing give better answers if you're asking questions about news. And the pain point there is obviously, news is changing very quickly. You got to be really good at understanding what's happening out there in the ecosystem for an AI chat experience to offer back an answer of something that's relevant because it's news, it's constantly changing. So I thought we should take a look and see how good being has gotten with this. One of the things that I've done is, so I'm a big sports nut, as you all know at this point. And I thought, you know what I'll do? I'll ask Bing chat a bunch of questions about players and injury status because that's very current and let's see how well Bing can do it. And the answer is kind of okay. There's a player, his name is Giancarlo Stanton. He's a center fielder for the New York Yankees. He gets hurt a lot, all the time, at least- Crystal Carter: Unlucky. Mordy Oberstein: He's a big dude. He's very muscular in baseball. The traditional player was more stringy. Crystal Carter: I mean, Babe Ruth, come on, Babe Ruth was like... I mean- Mordy Oberstein: Well, Babe Ruth, this is a different... An aberration unto itself. He was eating a thousand hotdog before a game. Shows up, hits a couple home runs, goes back to eating the hotdog. That dude was different. Crystal Carter: Okay, built differently. Mordy Oberstein: Yes, built differently. Back in the day though, the player were just... They were more athletic than they were muscular. 'Cause muscular, you get hurt. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: And John Carlo is a very muscular man and he gets hurt a lot. So I asked Bing chat, what is John Carlo Stanton's status? This, by the way, was after I asked Bing chat, what team has Aaron Rogers played for. Crystal Carter: Sure. Mordy Oberstein: And he's a football player. He recently got traded and Bing got it wrong. He said he played for his old team. So I'm like, all right, let's give Bing another chance. Give it another chance. And I asked, what is Giancarlo Stanton? And Bing chat wrote back, Giancarlo Stan has missed most of the 2022 season. We're in 2023. With various injuries, including left achilles tendon, white quadricep and foot ankle. He told you he gets injured all the freaking time. Dude's a walking injury. He has not played the game since July 24th. That has not run the basis or gone on a rehab assignment. He hopes to return in September and October, but his status is alone unclear. He underwent x-rays on his foot ankle that came back negative, very prolific answer, very out of date. Crystal Carter: Foot ankle? Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Foot slash ankle, sorry. Okay, that's my fault. That's the Mordy. That's not the AI. But then it said most recently he suffered a hamstring strain and will miss six weeks and that's accurate as hell. Crystal Carter: Oh, okay. Okay. So it's got a little bit of a mixed bag there. Mordy Oberstein: It's a little bit of both. And I just thought, it's so interesting how the content that these AI chat experiences are spitting out is changing and how far we've come because I think it's awesome that being is making that update. And I think what they've done is awesome and they've clearly gotten it right, but they've also clearly gotten it wrong. And I think there's two ways to look at this from a technology point of view. This is amazing. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: From a user point of view for the correct information, this is eh, sort of kind of. Crystal Carter: Yeah. If you said, if I jump off this bridge, will I live, and the answer was like 50% accurate, I wouldn't trust that information. So I think that that's the case. I mean, in my experiments with Bing Chat and I've used it a bit and I've kicked the tires a little bit, pushing on some more sensitive topics. What I sometimes find is that with sensitive topics, it'll just shut down. It'll say, "I don't want to talk about that. I think we should change the subject." Mordy Oberstein: Yes, yes. Crystal Carter: And I'm like, "What?" So then I open up a new chat with the same question and then it'll say something and I say, "Well, why did you say that?" And says, "I don't want to talk about that." And then so I'm like, "Stop being so fragile Bing." Mordy Oberstein: I did the same thing. So when I asked Bing Chat, "Hey, you know what team has Aaron Rogers played for? He is a quarterback, he used to play for the Green Bay Packers and now he plays for the New York Jets." It came back. Aaron Rodgers, American football quarterback who currently plays for the Green Bay Packers, I wrote back, wasn't he traded to the Jets. And Bing Chat wrote back, according to recent reports, Aaron Rodgers has been traded to the New York Jets. And then I wrote being my snarky self. So why did you say he was on the Packers? Crystal Carter: Right, right. Mordy Oberstein: I then, "I apologize for the confusion. We must have missed the recent news." Crystal Carter: Right. Right. Precisely. And this is the thing, it gets a little bit sensitive, but I think that one of the other things that I find is that because it can be a bit sensitive, it sometimes hedges. So I think sometimes it will hedge itself on things on fairly safe information. So I asked it recently, what is the latest news in SEO? And the information that came back was sourced from Forbes past company and business Lancaster shouting out to Mark A. Preston. Actually, I'm talking about SEO. And the things that it said were pretty generic answers. They're not really news, they're just general sort of SEO trends. It was saying that Forbes says businesses must adapt their SEO strategies to ensure their content stays relevant. I mean, that could be the news from this week or from last month or from two years ago or from wherever it is. And I'm really surprised that those sources for SEO news, because there are a number of news publications for SEO that are notable. Mordy Oberstein: Barry Schwartz. Crystal Carter: Barry Schwartz, SEJ, SEL there's tons of them that are very specifically dedicated to SEO. So I think it's interesting that they're hedging on some of these particular sources that are sort of seen as sort of maybe safe or maybe vanilla. Because I think Bing gets a little bit... It gets a little bit sensitive. It gets feelings get hurt. Mordy Oberstein: Well, oh, my feelings get hurt really easily too. So I can't blame Bing. Crystal Carter: We all have feelings. Mordy Oberstein: We all have feelings. Something really interesting about that point. Rich Tatum posted something on Twitter where I think what he posted was he was asking Chat GPT to basically fudge experience, write up a prompt about what it's like to drive a Ford Mustang or something similar to that. And it tried to fudge that experience of driving a Ford Mustang. And it gave pretty generic experiences. It was superfast and fun to drive that Mustang with those 220 ….. That level of nuance, you can't actually fudge actual experience and actual expertise. And it's a really good point. 'Cause I was thinking, you know what? I never thought of that hack. If I got... I'm trying to play the review update, right? I'm going to show experience, I'll just go ask the AI, right? As if I had experience. But you can't fudge it. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's very difficult. 'Cause I think also there's sometimes where... I think this is where actual reviews are really interesting is because... And I've seen this before where you see some sites are ranking for reviews and others are not, because the particular reviews that they have on their site are more unique than the other ones. So if the other reviews are like, oh, it's great, or oh, it's nice, then that's going to be different from a review that's very detailed. And they're very often the ones that are on the edges, they're either the one star or the five star who are getting into the sort of like, oh actually when I tried to assemble this chair, it didn't come with enough bolts. Or when I tried to... I recently bought an office chair and someone said, I do not like this chair. I would not wish this cursed chair on my worst enemies. And I was like, cursed. Did you really put cursed in there? But that is a unique review full of some unique feelings. And those sorts of things are not... Being Bing are very sensitive about how it feels about its results. It's not going to put that kind of content in what it's saying. Chat GPT probably wouldn't as well. I mean, I don't know if you could ask Chat GPT add to, I never asked Chat GPT to write a salty review about it- Mordy Oberstein: But it probably wouldn't had that level of nuance. I just wouldn't be there. So end of the day, 'cause we're talking about refining content strategies and refining content plans on the pivoting and refining the strategy when Bing saw the need to get news more accurate, A plus. Good job on you Bing, that's what you should be doing. In the execution, I think we're at a C. Crystal Carter: Yeah. I think they can A for effort, and I did actually test this. So after the Oscars, there was an image AI image of Zendaya at the Oscars that was making the rounds on Twitter, and it was retweeted by a few major news publications. And I asked Bing, "Was Zendaya at the Oscars." And they were like, "No, she wasn't. She was in London with her boyfriend." And I was like, okay, Bing. All right, I see you good. That's good information. Good sorting out that information there. So I think also they were fighting it a lot, so they'll get there- Mordy Oberstein: It's a work in project. It's not a critique at all. This whole technology really is in its infancy, but as a user, if you're going to be asking you questions about like Giancarlo Stanton injury status, take the answer with a grain of salt. You have to really be careful. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it might be worth them putting a little label on there that's like, do check. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. But be that as it may anyway. Well, this was kind of new. What was definitely new is the news. Crystal Carter: The news. Mordy Oberstein: So here's our owed, our weekly owed to Barry Schwartz. As we get into the Snappy News. Snappy news, snappy news, snappy news. Get a whole bunch of things for you from Barry Schwartz over at SearchEngineRoundtable.com. They're all from Barry this week, and they're all from SearchEngineRoundtable.com. First up, Google rolling out multiple feature snippets on desktop search. Reports are coming in showing that Google is using multiple featured snippets. Three to be exact on desktop. So you search on desktop and you would get three snippets of texts with three URLs crammed into the same space at the top of the SERP. I'm not sure how widespread this is. I don't see it on desktop. I do see it on mobile, which goes back to a previous Google release. Again, I don't see it on desktop in the US or not in the US. I don't see it, but maybe you do. By the way, the idea of Google going more diverse with feature snippets is something I've been clamoring about for a long time. Did whole article about it on the Wix DEO hub. So I will link to that in the show notes. Okay, AI, Google search, generative experience results are not really personalized. Thank you, Barry. Good to know. Google Bard can now provide more precise local results if you allow Bard to access your location. Thank you, Mary. Good to know, Microsoft, Bing chat to work on all browsers soon. Once again, Barry, thank you very much. Great to know. And that's this week's snappy news. Thanks for listening to our little news section. I hope you enjoyed it. Crystal Carter: Thank you. We have some listeners who say that the news is their favorite part of the SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. We have one listener who says that. His name rhymes with Mary Borts. Crystal Carter: No, there was somebody else who said that they absolutely love the Snappy News. And shout out to all of our listeners. Hello, listeners out there in Radioland... Not Radioland. Podcast Land. Mordy Oberstein: Podcast Land. Crystal Carter: Thank you for joining us and thank you for enjoying the Snappy News. Mordy Oberstein: Yes, it was quite snappy. But before we do the part for this week, we have to go through our follow of the week and we have... 'Cause we're talking about content and content strategies. We have somebody who's all about content, contributor to the Wix SEO Hub herself, Maddy Osman over at Maddy Osman on Twitter, that's M-A-D-D-Y O-S-M-A-N. And Maddy is a content strategist execution. She wrote a book. She has a book about writing content that you can buy. Crystal Carter: She's really into her content. She's contributed some fantastic articles on the Wix SEO Hub. And she has, again, yeah, written the book and she's got a really good community that she runs that talks about content as well. So yeah, do you check out Maddy at Blocksmiths, she also runs courses on content as well. Super, super friendly. Super, super clever. A great follow if you're looking to increase your content quality and quantity. Mordy Oberstein: Yes, she's definitely little more prominent SEOs on the content side, thinking about content from an SEO point of view and just from a pure content point of view. So give a follow to Maddy and tell her we sent you. Nut you can't do when you follow someone, I wish you could... There should be a referral of some kind. Like I followed you because the SERP's Up Podcast editor follow you. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I think that'd be good. Ride the wave. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Ride the Wave because the SERP's Up Podcast, it's a whole surfing thing. Get it? Thanks. Anyway, thank you for joining us on this SERP's Up Podcast. Already going to miss us not to worry. We're back next week with a new episode as we dive into what the heck is helpful content, actually? Crystal Carter: What is helpful, what is unhelpful? What's going on with helpful content? Let's talk about it. Mordy Oberstein: What does it all mean? What does it all mean? Crystal Carter: Can we get some help? Mordy Oberstein: Yes- Crystal Carter: I need somebody. Mordy Oberstein: It would be very helpful. Look for wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO learning them over at wix.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO. Checkout all of the great content and webinars and newsletter on the Wix SEO Learning, however you guessed it. wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Adriana Stein Maddy Osman Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter AS Marketing Agency Google SERP Content Diversity News: Google Rolling Out Multiple Featured Snippets On Desktop Search Google Search Generative Experience Results Are Not Really Personalized Google Bard Can Now Provide More Precise Local Results Microsoft: Bing Chat To Work On All Browsers Soon Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Adriana Stein Maddy Osman Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter AS Marketing Agency Google SERP Content Diversity News: Google Rolling Out Multiple Featured Snippets On Desktop Search Google Search Generative Experience Results Are Not Really Personalized Google Bard Can Now Provide More Precise Local Results Microsoft: Bing Chat To Work On All Browsers Soon Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting, welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, Mahalo for joining the SERP's Up Podcast. We're pushing out some groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the Head of SEO Branding here at Wix. I'm joined by the adjective laden, Head of SEO Communications, Crystal Carter. A good adjective laden. Good adjective laden. Crystal Carter: That is the laziest one I've ever heard. It's like when I'm saying like, oh, this is a... And I just do like seven fire emojis. Because I'm like, insert fantastic adjective, whatever it may be that you choose based on the fire emoji, it's fire. Mordy Oberstein: I'm just out of adjectives. I don't know what to say anymore because each week it's the incredible, fantastic... The adjective laden. Crystal Carter: Well, thank you for a fantastic, stupendous, incredible, marvelous, Mordy-licious introduction. Thank you. Mordy Oberstein: It's not easy. The last one you got stuck like, where do I go now? And you say, is it time to stop? Crystal Carter: Yeah, this is true. Although to be fair though, your name starts with the name an M, so there's like marvelous, marvelous Mordy, magnificent Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: Mania. Crystal Carter: Mordy Mania. Anyway. Mordy Oberstein: This SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can not only subscribe to our monthly newsletter, searchlight over at wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but it's also where you can manage your content all in one place connected to datasets and more with the Wix content manager, so that you can dutifully execute both your SEO and content strategies. As today we're talking about both. Your SEO and content strategies. See the connection? Crystal Carter: Yes, I do see the connection. They're connected very, very well. Mordy Oberstein: Quite explicitly. I don't say so myself. Crystal Carter: It's almost like you wrote it. Mordy Oberstein: It's almost like we wrote that part of the... Yes, that's right. Today we're diving into the overlap between SEO and content marketing at the strategic level as we look at building a content strategy for SEO and beyond things like our SEO content and content marketing strategy, the same different, kind of the same, kind of different kind of not the same. Where do you start including your content and SEO content strategies, and how do you refine your strategy along the way to help us dive into that, we have a very special guest, hope stopping by in just a few minutes. And Adriana Stein, the CEO and founder of AS Marketing. Plus we're talking content, and if it's 2023 and we're talking content, we're talking about AI and AI and content. So we're going to explore how AI content produced or rather content produced by AI content generators in search engines as changed. And of course, the snappiest of SEO news for you and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. So while the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry, that doesn't apply to us because we're fricking SEOs and marketers. So hey, we're marketers here. These rules don't apply to us. So full steam ahead and full planning ahead as episode number 41 of the SERP's Up SEO Podcast gets all up in your strategy. Crystal Carter: Let's go. Mordy Oberstein: Let's go. So content strategies, in my opinion, are Jackson Pollock paintings. It seems kind of like chaos, but underneath I think there's some semblance of... Or should it be some semblance of order and planning that goes underneath it. Crystal Carter: That's true. This is sounds like somebody who's seen a Jackson painting in real life. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, real? Crystal Carter: I have. They're actually gigantic. And actually when you see them, you do see that actually it isn't just chaos. Mordy Oberstein: It does make sense. My first association to him was watching the movie with Ed Harris, but I was think like 10 or 11 when it came out. I am not sure that was appropriate for me to be watching, but either way kind of explains a few things. Chaos or planning rather, can easily become chaos, which means that the execution of the planning gets a hard thing to get. It also means that plans change, and I'm a firm believer that if your plan doesn't change, you're not doing it right. If you start with a content plan and you go through without any adjustment, you're probably doing something wrong. But what do these plans look like? Where does an SEO content plan fit in with the overall content plan? And for you pure content folks, where does a general content plan kind of play yourself out within the SEO strategy? So basically, what does a planning thing look like and how do you not just wing it? And to help us tackle all of this, put your hands together for the founder of AS marketing. Adriana Stein, welcome to the SERP's Up Podcast. Adriana Stein: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Crystal Carter: Yay, we're so pleased to have you along, big fan of your work. Adriana Stein. Adriana and I are both members of the Women in Tech SEO group. Adriana Stein: Yes. Crystal Carter: And we've both attended the Women in Tech SEO conferences and mutual appreciation here on the podcast for the work that Adriana is doing, particularly on content but also on some amazing things, and also being the founder and director of your own agency there. Fantastic. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Tell us about that. Adriana Stein: Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so AS Marketing, we specialize in multi-language marketing, so we're a full service agency. Our projects tend to actually split between PPC and SEO. It started out being a lot more SEO focused, but now it's kind of interesting. There's a pretty widespread demand for multi-language international marketing, and that's where we basically come in and help our clients expand into new markets with localization. So it can be Germany to the US or the UK to the EU, or some sort of combination of madness like this. And we work with native speakers to help localize all of the strategy, implement, optimize everything and ensure there's conversions of some sort. So leads or sales, whether you're B2C or B2B, then that's where we're able to help. So a lot of content goes into that. Crystal Carter: And a lot of planning- Adriana Stein: And a lot of different places. A lot of planning. Crystal Carter: A lot of planning. And I think you've contributed a really great article on localization and content localization. And one of the things that comes up with that is that when you're planning that content, you're planning to make it in whatever is your X default language, but also planning to roll it out to other languages and also to maintain it across all of that. Do you have any sort of insights or experience that you can share on that? Adriana Stein: Yeah, so I think the first thing I would start off by saying is be really cautious with mass translations. That's one of the things that we first talk through with all of our clients. I will say talk through, because sometimes it's a top-down decision that they're like, okay, we're just going to copy paste everything we've been doing in the US and then we're just going to do that in Germany and then we will just work like that. And we don't have a say in anything, but ideally there is some sort of separate strategy per each market, and it doesn't have to be in incredibly minute detail. If you have the budget, the resources for that, great. I mean, you're probably going to get a better return on investment that way. But starting off at least try to have a little bit of separate understanding for each market and how it performs because every culture is different, every language is different. People phrase things in different ways. The buying cycle is very different in different markets. And so in terms of planning, really it's one, having an understanding of, okay, how am I going to go into this market effectively? And making sure you have the mindset, the operational mindset as a business to do that, and then that you also find the right strategic support, the right type of people to help you do that. So whether that's an agency or whether you do that in-house, it's really ideal that you work with someone who understands that market. It can really help you localize the strategy for that. And that's regardless of the channel. So whether that's SEO, whether that's Google Ads, LinkedIn, whatever the case may be, the more localized you can make everything, then the stronger the strategy is going to be because it's more personalized. The reason I always will say that this is going to be more efficient in the end is because think about the local competitors that you have in that country or in that market. They're already doing that anyways. So if you go in with that reduced sort of customer experience in comparison with the local markets, with the local competitors, they're not going to get very far. So you've basically got to outperform them from the get-go if you want to make an impact. Mordy Oberstein: To sort of zoom out on this. How much of that is... When you're creating all this content, whether it's in this market or that market or multiple markets all at one time, how much overlap is there in the strategy itself overall between the different... I'll call them verticals, whether it's content marketing, SEO, PPC, whatever it is? Adriana Stein: Yeah, there's a ton. I mean, ideally there should be a ton and no silo. In some companies there is unfortunately a silo if you have a lot of different teams that have different goals. But the best case scenario is when all of the content strategy holistically performs together. So I think it's important to kind of zoom out on content, and a lot of us perceive content purely for SEO purposes, but content is also for landing pages, for PPC case studies. White papers especially for B2B are important as well. Videos, music, I don't know anything that people produce in relation to a brand or even the customers or the users talk about that brand that is all content. So all of that can really come together to form what is the content strategy for a brand. Crystal Carter: I absolutely agree. I had a client who used to get a lot of traffic from some of their offsite assets from some of their IRL assets. They had a particular product and it needed instructions, and the way that you could get instructions was, there was a QR code or something that was in the back of the package and we used to get tons of traffic from that. So yeah, it's important to think about keeping the content strategy and the content strategy consistent, the content consistent across all of those different touch points. Can you give any insight for how to make sure you've got a common thread going through your content strategy? Adriana Stein: I think there are two things there. One is communication. Communication is going to be easier in a smaller company than in a bigger company. But if you can in a bigger company and you have separate departments, like a separate maybe advertising team, even a separate brand team, separate SEO team, just communicate all the time about here's what we're doing, here's how we're using this, because then you can repurpose all of that content that's produced too. It shouldn't just be used on one channel. And then the other thing really is the KPIs. It should be that everyone is working together on the same goal. So that really is a reason to then communicate, here's how our work is performing here. Here's how your work is performing here. How is that helping our overarching goal? And then involving sales and that as well is really ideal, especially in B2B, and to get everyone working toward that same goal because then you find that the content you produce can be used in all facets of every part of everyone's work. And that really helps keep everything very consistent too. Mordy Oberstein: I always say content is your brand, whatever medium it is, whether it's video, image or actual words, that is your brand, that's how you're commuting yourself to the public. There's like no other way. There's no audio language or anything like that. It has to be content. Do you find that your pure content strategy and your SEO content strategy are sort of converging together? I'll give you a good example of what I mean by this. I find that what users want and what search engines want both in terms of stylistically, I think users or people, I hate that people are looking for more conversational types of content from brands opposed to marketing schlock, and I think that ties into things around experience and expertise that Google's looking for. At the same time, they kind of very much align. Do you find that's happening more and more in 2023 than it did in years past? Adriana Stein: Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you've heard this concept of analysis paralysis because it just means that there's so much information out there and so many options to choose that people do a lot of research, a lot of research before they buy something, even a lower price type product. You're looking at reviews, you're looking at prices, you're probably looking at multiple brands to try to understand what's best for you and trying to find a way through a bit of all of the madness. And I think the best way that brands can really do that with content is trying to help them rather than just pushing people towards a sale, but just try to help them make an informed decision because the less that you push, then the more they're likely to trust you and they're going to purchase from you anyways. Sometimes even if the pricing is higher, then the trust factor plays a much bigger role than that. Mordy Oberstein: Good point. Crystal Carter: So I was thinking when you were saying about the analysis paralysis, it made me think of the reason why I shop at Little. So I shop at Little because they don't have 3 million different types of peanut butter. They have chunky and they have smooth, and I know that they have generally decent quality stuff. So whether it's chunky or smooth, whichever one I pick, it's probably going to be fine, but what I want is peanut butter. But at the end of the day, I know that there's a general sort of quality level for them. How do you deliver that sort of quality, maintain that sort of quality with the demands of quantity for content? So to be competitive online at the moment, you know, have to keep feeding the algorithm and keep feeding the algorithm, whether you're on social, whether you're on your website, et cetera, et cetera. How do you maintain that quality while you're rolling out the quantity of content that you need to make a splash? Adriana Stein: Yeah, I mean that's honestly like a million-dollar question today I must say. But I think to answer it simply, it really comes down to processes. So if you have very streamlined processes, everyone knows what they're supposed to do, at which stage, by which date, how much you're trying to produce over a certain timeframe, who needs to have input on something? Ideally the less people the better, because if you have six people editing, this is one of the biggest roadblocks that I've seen to installing content is when you just have too many brains and they're trying to make sense of everything and it just takes way too long. So really processes is what it comes down to, and that will help you get that quality because there will be someone like a content strategist of some sort depending on the channel who's kind of overseeing quality, maybe some sort of project manager who's assigning things, telling people which part of the project they're supposed to do, which sort of task they're supposed to do, and just really aligning everyone on all of that. That's really the biggest thing. So if you don't have some sort of really clear checklist, here's our one to 10 steps, here's doing what, it just gets so random chaos and then you end up not producing a lot of content, the process is key. Mordy Oberstein: So to that process though, I think one of the things that's interesting to me is that when you're dealing with multiple teams and multiple pieces of content and multiple strategies, and what I inevitably find, and we talked about this on a previous podcast, there's a certain momentum at a certain cadence that you get. And then as that happens, new opportunities arise, new ways of thinking come about, new pain points are unearth, all of a sudden the brain starts flowing and you start thinking differently as things evolve. How do you refine along the way? How do you make sure you're open to refining along the way? Then how do you actually steer that because you're working with assets you've been planning on for so long that now you might have to reshift though with multiple teams and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It all seems like trying to make a giant U-turn and you're the Titanic. Adriana Stein: Oh yeah, I can relate to that- Mordy Oberstein: Iceberg. Adriana Stein: I would say really it still comes down to processes because it's about also adding that part in the process. So when is there a regular optimization happening or how often are content topics created and how? Is it one brainstorming session a month? Everyone's got to come there with their ideas and that's it, really stick to that. Or is it every three months we're doing an audit on this sort of thing, or every six months we're doing an audit on this sort of thing, or I don't know, maybe there's a new service offering. And so we need to understand, okay, how do we implement this with the rest of the content so that the messaging is consistent? We're still talking about both things, but there's different pain points that still is part of the optimization process. So I would say really just add space for that in this content production checklist. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great point. Do you ever find though that there's parts of the strategy that are at odds with each other? So let's go back to the example of things are getting more conversational out there with brands. That's great. And you may say, you know what? We need to pivot. We need to become more conversational. And I can imagine an SEO saying, wait, wait, but the age two needs to have the keyword. You don't have the keyword now. Now what do we do? Adriana Stein: Well, yeah, I think that's the bane of every SEO's existence is like, how do we create really great content but that's still adheres to SEO formatting? Which is so strict in particular. It's very, very difficult to find a balance of both. But I think if you can try to focus, for example, content ideation, even if it's something conversational based on, okay, how from the beginning can we apply this to SEO? So not that SEO is a later stage in the content strategy, but it's really at the forefront. And I think that's one of the biggest channels that needs to be at the forefront because if you can think of, okay, this content group, content cluster or something like this, this can work really well for SEO and then here's how we're going to do the rest of the content in relation to that. We're going to link to some conversion mining pages. Maybe we're going to link to a lead magnet off of this page, and then that can be used for email marketing later to capture some emails like this. So put it directly within your content strategy, your content planning, and that will help that a little bit be a bit more natural. Because if SEO comes so much later down, you've got a content strategy and then three months later you're like, okay, let's do SEO and let's try to shove the SEO into this content strategy, then you're going to have some difficulties putting those keywords properly. Crystal Carter: And I think that it can be a challenge to build that in. What role do you consider education to play in making sure that your wider team are able to do some of that SEO as they go along or so are able to keep SEO in the forefront of their minds as they're creating even that more sort of conversational or reactionary content? Adriana Stein: Yeah, that's a good question. So what we use on our team is briefs. We use really, really detailed briefs for our content writers. I would say even a lot of the content is kind of half written. It's not elegantly written. That's what the writer is there to kind of help us refine, maybe dig in with some of the research a bit further. But what we provide the content writer, which comes from the strategist who knows the overarching business strategy, how this fits into the content strategy at hand, then they're creating a very, very detailed brief for the writer. So the writer really knows, okay, here's how this fits into SEO. Here's what I'm supposed to write in relation to the structure of the content. So what goes into each section focuses of the keywords so they know, and it comes off very naturally when you do it this way because then it's not asking the content writer to just add, I don't know like, say this keyword, write this keyword 20 times into this content. That doesn't work. That sort of way of doing SEO I think is really outdated. It's a lot about coming from the top down, putting SEO into the business strategy and then creating content topics based on that, and then briefing the writer based on that. And then all of the processes is a lot more natural. And it's not a struggle for the writer to do that. Mordy Oberstein: If there's like one consistent theme. It's the planning all the way throughout. Adriana Stein: Yes, it is. Mordy Oberstein: And it's such a good point because if the overlap between content and SEO was that much stronger, you really need to loop in the SEO into the full content process all the way down. It just makes so much sense. We could probably dive into way more of this, but I know that your time is short and extremely valuable, so we'll let you get back to creating all of that great content. But where can people find you first? Adriana Stein: Best place would be on LinkedIn probably. So feel free to send me a message. You can just type in my name, Adrian Stein, you'll find me there. I'm also on Twitter too if you're really keen on still using that Wild Wild West platform these days. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I guess it beat Mastodon. Adriana Stein: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Sorry Simon. Crystal Carter: But thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure. And yes, I'm getting the hint that process... It's all about the process. Adriana Stein: Yep. It's all about the process. Mordy Oberstein: Trust the process, trust the process with- Adriana Stein: I will probably be saying this from my grave, look at your process- Crystal Carter: It was the process. Mordy Oberstein: He trusted the process. Well, thank you so much Adriana, showed a link to your social profiles in the show notes for this episode, so you can keep getting awesomeness from Adriana out there on social media. Thank you, Adriana. Adriana Stein: Thanks so much for having me. Super pleasure. Mordy Oberstein: Bye. Adriana Stein: Bye. Mordy Oberstein: So speaking of plans and content plans and content plans, changing and planning and the planning and the planning, one thing that's constantly changing and I think where people are pivoting or platforms are pivoting with their content would be AI content generators. By the way, we're talking about content, does any other content even exist other than content written by AI generators? The answer was, I hope so. Crystal Carter: I hope so. Mordy Oberstein: I hope so Crystal Carter: Yes, absolutely. Mordy Oberstein: But be that as it may and your stance on AI aside, it is super interesting what the search engines are doing with integrating AI chat experiences and how changing they are. And Bing actually has made some really interesting changes to their AI chat experience. So while we usually go Google this time, we're going Bing. Speaker 5: And it's going. Google. It's outta here. Mordy Oberstein: Recently, relatively recently, Bing made an update. It was covered by Search Engine Land & Search Engine Roundtable, both by Barry Schwartz back on April 21st, where Bing wrote quote, we've taken steps to help Bing give better answers if you're asking questions about news. And the pain point there is obviously, news is changing very quickly. You got to be really good at understanding what's happening out there in the ecosystem for an AI chat experience to offer back an answer of something that's relevant because it's news, it's constantly changing. So I thought we should take a look and see how good being has gotten with this. One of the things that I've done is, so I'm a big sports nut, as you all know at this point. And I thought, you know what I'll do? I'll ask Bing chat a bunch of questions about players and injury status because that's very current and let's see how well Bing can do it. And the answer is kind of okay. There's a player, his name is Giancarlo Stanton. He's a center fielder for the New York Yankees. He gets hurt a lot, all the time, at least- Crystal Carter: Unlucky. Mordy Oberstein: He's a big dude. He's very muscular in baseball. The traditional player was more stringy. Crystal Carter: I mean, Babe Ruth, come on, Babe Ruth was like... I mean- Mordy Oberstein: Well, Babe Ruth, this is a different... An aberration unto itself. He was eating a thousand hotdog before a game. Shows up, hits a couple home runs, goes back to eating the hotdog. That dude was different. Crystal Carter: Okay, built differently. Mordy Oberstein: Yes, built differently. Back in the day though, the player were just... They were more athletic than they were muscular. 'Cause muscular, you get hurt. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: And John Carlo is a very muscular man and he gets hurt a lot. So I asked Bing chat, what is John Carlo Stanton's status? This, by the way, was after I asked Bing chat, what team has Aaron Rogers played for. Crystal Carter: Sure. Mordy Oberstein: And he's a football player. He recently got traded and Bing got it wrong. He said he played for his old team. So I'm like, all right, let's give Bing another chance. Give it another chance. And I asked, what is Giancarlo Stanton? And Bing chat wrote back, Giancarlo Stan has missed most of the 2022 season. We're in 2023. With various injuries, including left achilles tendon, white quadricep and foot ankle. He told you he gets injured all the freaking time. Dude's a walking injury. He has not played the game since July 24th. That has not run the basis or gone on a rehab assignment. He hopes to return in September and October, but his status is alone unclear. He underwent x-rays on his foot ankle that came back negative, very prolific answer, very out of date. Crystal Carter: Foot ankle? Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Foot slash ankle, sorry. Okay, that's my fault. That's the Mordy. That's not the AI. But then it said most recently he suffered a hamstring strain and will miss six weeks and that's accurate as hell. Crystal Carter: Oh, okay. Okay. So it's got a little bit of a mixed bag there. Mordy Oberstein: It's a little bit of both. And I just thought, it's so interesting how the content that these AI chat experiences are spitting out is changing and how far we've come because I think it's awesome that being is making that update. And I think what they've done is awesome and they've clearly gotten it right, but they've also clearly gotten it wrong. And I think there's two ways to look at this from a technology point of view. This is amazing. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: From a user point of view for the correct information, this is eh, sort of kind of. Crystal Carter: Yeah. If you said, if I jump off this bridge, will I live, and the answer was like 50% accurate, I wouldn't trust that information. So I think that that's the case. I mean, in my experiments with Bing Chat and I've used it a bit and I've kicked the tires a little bit, pushing on some more sensitive topics. What I sometimes find is that with sensitive topics, it'll just shut down. It'll say, "I don't want to talk about that. I think we should change the subject." Mordy Oberstein: Yes, yes. Crystal Carter: And I'm like, "What?" So then I open up a new chat with the same question and then it'll say something and I say, "Well, why did you say that?" And says, "I don't want to talk about that." And then so I'm like, "Stop being so fragile Bing." Mordy Oberstein: I did the same thing. So when I asked Bing Chat, "Hey, you know what team has Aaron Rogers played for? He is a quarterback, he used to play for the Green Bay Packers and now he plays for the New York Jets." It came back. Aaron Rodgers, American football quarterback who currently plays for the Green Bay Packers, I wrote back, wasn't he traded to the Jets. And Bing Chat wrote back, according to recent reports, Aaron Rodgers has been traded to the New York Jets. And then I wrote being my snarky self. So why did you say he was on the Packers? Crystal Carter: Right, right. Mordy Oberstein: I then, "I apologize for the confusion. We must have missed the recent news." Crystal Carter: Right. Right. Precisely. And this is the thing, it gets a little bit sensitive, but I think that one of the other things that I find is that because it can be a bit sensitive, it sometimes hedges. So I think sometimes it will hedge itself on things on fairly safe information. So I asked it recently, what is the latest news in SEO? And the information that came back was sourced from Forbes past company and business Lancaster shouting out to Mark A. Preston. Actually, I'm talking about SEO. And the things that it said were pretty generic answers. They're not really news, they're just general sort of SEO trends. It was saying that Forbes says businesses must adapt their SEO strategies to ensure their content stays relevant. I mean, that could be the news from this week or from last month or from two years ago or from wherever it is. And I'm really surprised that those sources for SEO news, because there are a number of news publications for SEO that are notable. Mordy Oberstein: Barry Schwartz. Crystal Carter: Barry Schwartz, SEJ, SEL there's tons of them that are very specifically dedicated to SEO. So I think it's interesting that they're hedging on some of these particular sources that are sort of seen as sort of maybe safe or maybe vanilla. Because I think Bing gets a little bit... It gets a little bit sensitive. It gets feelings get hurt. Mordy Oberstein: Well, oh, my feelings get hurt really easily too. So I can't blame Bing. Crystal Carter: We all have feelings. Mordy Oberstein: We all have feelings. Something really interesting about that point. Rich Tatum posted something on Twitter where I think what he posted was he was asking Chat GPT to basically fudge experience, write up a prompt about what it's like to drive a Ford Mustang or something similar to that. And it tried to fudge that experience of driving a Ford Mustang. And it gave pretty generic experiences. It was superfast and fun to drive that Mustang with those 220 ….. That level of nuance, you can't actually fudge actual experience and actual expertise. And it's a really good point. 'Cause I was thinking, you know what? I never thought of that hack. If I got... I'm trying to play the review update, right? I'm going to show experience, I'll just go ask the AI, right? As if I had experience. But you can't fudge it. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's very difficult. 'Cause I think also there's sometimes where... I think this is where actual reviews are really interesting is because... And I've seen this before where you see some sites are ranking for reviews and others are not, because the particular reviews that they have on their site are more unique than the other ones. So if the other reviews are like, oh, it's great, or oh, it's nice, then that's going to be different from a review that's very detailed. And they're very often the ones that are on the edges, they're either the one star or the five star who are getting into the sort of like, oh actually when I tried to assemble this chair, it didn't come with enough bolts. Or when I tried to... I recently bought an office chair and someone said, I do not like this chair. I would not wish this cursed chair on my worst enemies. And I was like, cursed. Did you really put cursed in there? But that is a unique review full of some unique feelings. And those sorts of things are not... Being Bing are very sensitive about how it feels about its results. It's not going to put that kind of content in what it's saying. Chat GPT probably wouldn't as well. I mean, I don't know if you could ask Chat GPT add to, I never asked Chat GPT to write a salty review about it- Mordy Oberstein: But it probably wouldn't had that level of nuance. I just wouldn't be there. So end of the day, 'cause we're talking about refining content strategies and refining content plans on the pivoting and refining the strategy when Bing saw the need to get news more accurate, A plus. Good job on you Bing, that's what you should be doing. In the execution, I think we're at a C. Crystal Carter: Yeah. I think they can A for effort, and I did actually test this. So after the Oscars, there was an image AI image of Zendaya at the Oscars that was making the rounds on Twitter, and it was retweeted by a few major news publications. And I asked Bing, "Was Zendaya at the Oscars." And they were like, "No, she wasn't. She was in London with her boyfriend." And I was like, okay, Bing. All right, I see you good. That's good information. Good sorting out that information there. So I think also they were fighting it a lot, so they'll get there- Mordy Oberstein: It's a work in project. It's not a critique at all. This whole technology really is in its infancy, but as a user, if you're going to be asking you questions about like Giancarlo Stanton injury status, take the answer with a grain of salt. You have to really be careful. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it might be worth them putting a little label on there that's like, do check. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. But be that as it may anyway. Well, this was kind of new. What was definitely new is the news. Crystal Carter: The news. Mordy Oberstein: So here's our owed, our weekly owed to Barry Schwartz. As we get into the Snappy News. Snappy news, snappy news, snappy news. Get a whole bunch of things for you from Barry Schwartz over at SearchEngineRoundtable.com. They're all from Barry this week, and they're all from SearchEngineRoundtable.com. First up, Google rolling out multiple feature snippets on desktop search. Reports are coming in showing that Google is using multiple featured snippets. Three to be exact on desktop. So you search on desktop and you would get three snippets of texts with three URLs crammed into the same space at the top of the SERP. I'm not sure how widespread this is. I don't see it on desktop. I do see it on mobile, which goes back to a previous Google release. Again, I don't see it on desktop in the US or not in the US. I don't see it, but maybe you do. By the way, the idea of Google going more diverse with feature snippets is something I've been clamoring about for a long time. Did whole article about it on the Wix DEO hub. So I will link to that in the show notes. Okay, AI, Google search, generative experience results are not really personalized. Thank you, Barry. Good to know. Google Bard can now provide more precise local results if you allow Bard to access your location. Thank you, Mary. Good to know, Microsoft, Bing chat to work on all browsers soon. Once again, Barry, thank you very much. Great to know. And that's this week's snappy news. Thanks for listening to our little news section. I hope you enjoyed it. Crystal Carter: Thank you. We have some listeners who say that the news is their favorite part of the SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. We have one listener who says that. His name rhymes with Mary Borts. Crystal Carter: No, there was somebody else who said that they absolutely love the Snappy News. And shout out to all of our listeners. Hello, listeners out there in Radioland... Not Radioland. Podcast Land. Mordy Oberstein: Podcast Land. Crystal Carter: Thank you for joining us and thank you for enjoying the Snappy News. Mordy Oberstein: Yes, it was quite snappy. But before we do the part for this week, we have to go through our follow of the week and we have... 'Cause we're talking about content and content strategies. We have somebody who's all about content, contributor to the Wix SEO Hub herself, Maddy Osman over at Maddy Osman on Twitter, that's M-A-D-D-Y O-S-M-A-N. And Maddy is a content strategist execution. She wrote a book. She has a book about writing content that you can buy. Crystal Carter: She's really into her content. She's contributed some fantastic articles on the Wix SEO Hub. And she has, again, yeah, written the book and she's got a really good community that she runs that talks about content as well. So yeah, do you check out Maddy at Blocksmiths, she also runs courses on content as well. Super, super friendly. Super, super clever. A great follow if you're looking to increase your content quality and quantity. Mordy Oberstein: Yes, she's definitely little more prominent SEOs on the content side, thinking about content from an SEO point of view and just from a pure content point of view. So give a follow to Maddy and tell her we sent you. Nut you can't do when you follow someone, I wish you could... There should be a referral of some kind. Like I followed you because the SERP's Up Podcast editor follow you. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I think that'd be good. Ride the wave. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Ride the Wave because the SERP's Up Podcast, it's a whole surfing thing. Get it? Thanks. Anyway, thank you for joining us on this SERP's Up Podcast. Already going to miss us not to worry. We're back next week with a new episode as we dive into what the heck is helpful content, actually? Crystal Carter: What is helpful, what is unhelpful? What's going on with helpful content? Let's talk about it. Mordy Oberstein: What does it all mean? What does it all mean? Crystal Carter: Can we get some help? Mordy Oberstein: Yes- Crystal Carter: I need somebody. Mordy Oberstein: It would be very helpful. Look for wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO learning them over at wix.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO. Checkout all of the great content and webinars and newsletter on the Wix SEO Learning, however you guessed it. wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . 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Aaron Anderson is the founder and lead link builder at Linkpitch.io, an outreach-driven link building agency. He's also the host of the "Let's Talk Link Building” podcast. When not building backlinks, he enjoys traveling the world with his family. Aaron Anderson Founder and Lead Link Builder, Linkpitch.io Aaron Anderson is the founder and lead link builder at Linkpitch.io , an outreach-driven link building agency. He's also the host of the "Let's Talk Link Building” podcast. When not building backlinks, he enjoys traveling the world with his family. Articles & Resources 30 May 2023 HARO link building: The backlink strategy everyone should use Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

Back Podcast planning template From guest scheduling to SEO, keep everything that goes into publishing a podcast on track with this template. Get resource Full name* Agency name Business email* I want to receive news and updates from the Wix SEO team. * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix’s Privacy Policy . Get resource Use this template to: Organize everything that goes into publishing a podcast episode Keep track of guest scheduling Keep track of creative asset creation Organize your episode distribution process Mordy Oberstein Head of SEO Brand, Wix LinkedIn Facebook X Instagram In addition to leading SEO branding at Wix, Mordy Oberstein serves as a communications advisor for Semrush. Dedicated to SEO education, Mordy authored the Wix SEO Guide , and is a well-known industry speaker and webinar host . Catch him chatting all things SEO on Wix’s podcast SERP’s Up , as well as Edge of the Web. More about this topic Read this post on podcast optimization from the Wix SEO Hub blog for more information. Share this resource Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

When building your digital marketing team, how do you know who to hire, when to hire them, and what skills you should value? Wix’s Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter discuss team-building challenges with Menachem Ani, founder of JXT Group. There’s a fine line between balancing who your team needs right now and who can help grow your business in the future. How do you know who is the right fit? Will you need them a year from now as the digital marketing model changes over time? Plus, Menachem Ani explains how he goes about hiring PPC specialists: attention to detail, excellent communication & analytical skills are a must. Tune in to this week’s episode of the SERPs Up SEO Podcast and take your SEO and digital marketing team to “higher” heights! Back Who to hire for your SEO team (and beyond) & when When building your digital marketing team, how do you know who to hire, when to hire them, and what skills you should value? Wix’s Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter discuss team-building challenges with Menachem Ani, founder of JXT Group. There’s a fine line between balancing who your team needs right now and who can help grow your business in the future. How do you know who is the right fit? Will you need them a year from now as the digital marketing model changes over time? Plus, Menachem Ani explains how he goes about hiring PPC specialists: attention to detail, excellent communication & analytical skills are a must. Tune in to this week’s episode of the SERPs Up SEO Podcast and take your SEO and digital marketing team to “higher” heights! Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 113 | December 4, 2024 | 34 MIN 00:00 / 34:18 This week’s guests Menachem Ani Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP'S Up. Aloha. Mahalo for joining the SERP'S Up Podcast, we're focusing on some groovy insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm already overseeing the SEO brand here at Wix. I'm joined by the ever insightful, the ever sharing the ever joyful, the ever present, the ever lasting. The ever lasting gobstopper. Crystal Carter, head of communications, SEO Communications here at Wix. Crystal Carter: Bless you for trying to come up with a list for 104, 100 and whatever, how many? Mordy Oberstein: 113. 113. Crystal Carter: A 113 episodes. Mordy Oberstein: We should do a top list. Top list, top ways I describe Crystal Carter. It could be a list- Crystal Carter: A supercut of all of them. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: And it would be like 10 minutes long. I appreciate you. Thank you. It's very kind of you, be very kind and generous and descriptive, Mordy Oberstein. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, keep going. Don't stop. This SERP'S Up podcast is brought to you by Wix Studio, where you can only subscribe to our SEO newsletter, Search Light, over at wix.com/SEO/newsletter and take our SEO courses. Or you can also expand your revenue possibilities or revenue sharing program by selling custom templates or by adding custom apps to our app markets. So expand your revenue possibilities with Wix Studio. This, so you can expand your revenue possibilities so that you can grow your team, as today we're covering how digital marketing teams of all kinds can know who to hire and when. How industry changes factor into the hiring process. New hires and getting ahead of the demand curve. And how to know what skills to value in a new hire. We sit down with Menachem Ani to discuss how the hiring process differs from one type of marketing team to another. And of course we have your snappiest of SEO news and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. So get ready to nod and say, "Mm-hmm, aha." And ask questions like what's your biggest weakness? As we help you navigate the hiring process on the 113th episode of the SERP'S Up podcast. My biggest weakness is that I have none. Crystal Carter: One time in an interview they were like, "What's your biggest weakness?" And I hate that question. Why would I tell you that? Mordy Oberstein: It's candy, carbs. Crystal Carter: No. I said, my biggest weakness is that I'm too awesome. And Lily's like, "What?" I was like, "I'm just too awesome. People really struggle with how awesome I am, and it's a lot to bear." And I did not get hired. But I did finally get to say that, which I'd always wanted to say. Mordy Oberstein: That would be amazing if you just list your actual bigness weaknesses. Crystal Carter: Oh my God. Mordy Oberstein: That'd be like a therapy session. Crystal Carter: It's like, "Well, I have a tendency to be attracted to unavailable people. It's something I really struggle... Struggle with that. And one time when I was seven years old, I had a jellyfish, and the jellyfish met a really tragic end and I find that that trauma has stayed with me- Mordy Oberstein: A jellyfish? Crystal Carter: No, I don't know. I'm just saying things. Mordy Oberstein: It was a jellyfish. Crystal Carter: I would love to have a jellyfish. It's very relaxing to watch them swim. Mordy Oberstein: No, it is. I just don't know if anyone's had a jellyfish. Crystal Carter: Listeners of SERP'S Up podcast, if you have a jellyfish or have ever been the caretaker of a jellyfish, please, please share your stories. Mordy Oberstein: Before we get into more about jellyfish, which I'm sure we'll come back to the end of this podcast somehow, some way. And before we get to Menachem Ani, who's going to talk about how the hiring process and what you should be looking for and what you should be doing, differs from one kind of marketing team to another kind of marketing team. Let's talk about the general things that all digital marketing teams should be thinking about when trying to hire new employees. I'll start with budget. Yeah, budget's going to be a big one. I'm not sure how yet, but I speculate that somehow budget is going to factor into your hiring process. Crystal Carter: And it also varies between teams. So agency teams will have different budget considerations from people who are working in-house. People who are working in-house at a private company will have different considerations from people who are working for, say, an NGO or a charity or a local authority or a government organization, and things like that. And I think also the risk that you can take and the cost of that will change as well. So some teams have a really, really long hiring processes and that can be a challenge for people that are looking to get hired. They're like, "I don't have six months to give you. I don't know that it should take six months, but I don't have six, seven meetings to give you in order to potentially get hired in this role." That's something that people sometimes struggle with. But for big teams, that can be the process. It can take weeks and weeks and lots of rounds of interviews. And part of that is because the cost of hiring will include a recruiter, will include the time of going through all of those CVs and all of that sort of stuff. And people want to hire well so they don't have to do it again because the cost of hiring can be very, very high. And that's even before you get to paying someone. So these things will definitely come into consideration when people are thinking about hiring. And it's certainly something that if you're trying to get a new person on your team, you have to include that in the business case, that it's worth it and that it will yield this ROI and all of that sort of stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. And it could be a little bit tricky, you're not just dealing with current performance and current ROI, you're trying to hire somebody because you're trying to facilitate potential growth and potential budget. So what your growth is now, what the numbers are now, what would that be if you actually hired that person? I'll give you a horrible example of what I mean by this, but if you want to say a free agent in sports, so how are we going to spend all that money hiring this big name? But yeah, when you think about how many butts are they going to put in the seats, I'll have so much more money. Crystal Carter: Right. And how many jerseys are we going to sell? Mordy Oberstein: All that kind of stuff, yeah, exactly. Crystal Carter: Yeah. And I think that when you're thinking about that growth and you're trying to figure out is this person, is this role valuable? Will it be able to yield the value? You have to think about for an individual person, you can look at their previous track record. If you had a sports person, you say, "Well, they've won this many championships. They'll probably do a good job for us." If you got somebody more in a corporate space, business space, then you can look at their track record, look at people who have worked with them and the kinds of things that they're able to do. And also I think it's important to think about the gaps in your business. So if you look at your team and you do maybe a skills matrix and you say, "In our team, we don't have a PPC person. If we hired a PPC person, we could offer PPC. Currently we cannot. And we keep trying to, and it's hit-and-miss, but if we hired a dedicated PPC expert, then we would be able to offer this PPC service," for instance. And that growth, you can prospect that. You can say, "We would be able to see a 10% lift in profitability, we'd be able to offer this to this many clients," that sort of thing as well. So that's really important. And I think that when you're thinking about if you're in-house and you're looking to hire in SEO support via an agency or a freelancer, you can also do the same sort of maths where you look at, "Our business doesn't have PPC, for instance, and if we did PPC for this cost, then we'd be able to make this profit." And that's something to think about. Mordy Oberstein: Right. And that's where you really have to think about what the problem is you're trying to solve. And really, really understand the problem you're trying to solve. Because then you can go a million different directions. We can make more money by offering PPC. We don't have a PPC person. Great, we'll hire a PPC person. But you might have a situation where you have multiple problems that you need to fill and you need somebody who's able to handle multiple problems. So you might need someone who, I don't know, who can do SEO and create content, or could do PPC and also knows how to do social media, whatever it might be. Sometimes you need more of a generalist, sometimes you need more of a specialist. And you need to better understand what your problems are in order to understand what direction you need to go with the hire. One thing I do see teams try to do, and I think it's a point of caution, is the generalist seems more cost-effective because they can do multiple things, so I'll hire a generalist. But you're not really thinking long-term like, yes, they might be able to do more things, but can they do better? And can they create better growth? And that one person who is really good at that one thing might be able to fill your problem in such a great way, that they're able to better grow your business. Even though it seems counterintuitive, but it's not. Crystal Carter: Whenever I think about furniture or things like that, sometimes they're like, "Oh, this chair also converts into a bed and also converts into a this. And also just- Mordy Oberstein: It's uncomfortable. All of them are uncomfortable. Crystal Carter: All of them are uncomfortable. Mordy Oberstein: All of them are uncomfortable. I know exactly where you're going with that. Crystal Carter: You know what I'm talking about? Mordy Oberstein: Yes, I had that chair. Crystal Carter: Or one of them will break. Mordy Oberstein: It's like when you buy a futon, don't do it. It's not usable for either. Crystal Carter: It's not usable. And then one of the bits will break, and then you have neither a sofa nor- Mordy Oberstein: You have a futon mattress on the floor. Crystal Carter: Right. You have nothing. And I'm not saying the generalists do this. I'm not saying that at all. However, sometimes you will have a generalist... Generalist people, particularly generalist marketers are very good at trying new things. That's how they became generalists. They're really interested in lots of new things. So they're a great place if you're like, "Hey, let's see if we can do AI stuff. Let's see what can we do to do AI content creation or something like that." Your generalist is a great person to start and get you going on whether or not this is something that fits into lots of things, will work. And then they're used to using lots of tools and they'll be able to see lots of opportunities there. Once they get you going, then you can make a business case for getting a specialist. And your generalist will obviously keep an eye and that sort of thing. But then it's a good time for you to be thinking about getting a specialist. And a specialist will help you to be really laser focused on getting that value. And when you're thinking about hiring, that's a great thing. When we think about new projects, when we think about getting new support, we very often will do a POC. So we will do a proof of concept, so you're not just flying blind, you're not just making it up as you go. And sometimes with hiring people will get a temp for a little while. And I've had full-time roles where I started as a temp. And I started as a temp, and then they were like, "Oh, this works great. Having this person here to do this works really great." Then you come on full time. Similarly, you could maybe get, and people think about this for agency stuff as well, so for instance, if you get an agency support, you might have that person come on or that team come on and do a project for you, a small project to see if that's a viable channel for you. Maybe you've never done a link billing campaign before, and so maybe they come on and do a little project for you. And then you're like, "Okay, this is great. We could roll this out across multiple channels or multiple parts of the business." And then you can get into a more long-term situation. But yeah, proof of concept is really valuable. Mordy Oberstein: It's great because then you can also really see what kind of person are they. On the CV or when you interview them, you can see like, "I know their skills. I know that they're competent, I know that maybe they're friendly," whatever, you can get some general. But you really want to understand, do they fit into what you actually need, the way that they work and how they operate and how they think, that's very hard, very, very hard to do. I want to hit one more point before we get to Menachem, and that's understand what skills to value. And that can change based upon, you see this right now in the market, what's emerging, what's upcoming, what's happening? If the ecosystem is shifting one way, while you might need that person now, will you still need that person in a year from now or that skill in a year from now? You see that with AI. And what makes it hard, by the way, is A, predicting, and also not getting caught up, like in the AI. It's hard to predict where it's going to go. And at the same time, it's hard not to get caught up in it. So you might hire, "Oh, we're going to hire a prompt engineer," but maybe you won't need that in a year from now, maybe you're overestimating where AI is going to be at in a year. I don't know, I'm making that up. But it's easy to see that as an example. Crystal Carter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that the market changes you need to think about aren't just from the wider market, but also from your team. So I've definitely known folks who were great, brilliant marketers, and they got settled in with a team that maybe was moving at a different pace than they were used to. And so, if you're in a fast-moving consumer goods, if you're in a B2C apparel sort of business, that e-comm timeline, those timelines are quick. Those are quick turnarounds. Whereas if somebody's in more of a lead gen space, then if somebody's used to e-comm pace, they'll be very surprised at the lead gen stuff where it might take three, four or five months to close a deal, for instance, and they'll need different things from marketing. So I think that it's important to get that bit. I know somebody who recently hired somebody who was great, they were a great AI person, and they were going to help them with their AI things. And in the end, the skills were there, but it wasn't a great fit for the team. And that's something to think about as well, where your team is at in your maturity in terms of having this person there. Do you have the setup to help that person thrive? Mordy Oberstein: That's a brilliant point. Yeah. Crystal Carter: For instance, if we had... My softball team got, I don't know, name a baseball player, Aaron Jed, is that a baseball player? Mordy Oberstein: Aaron Jed's, a baseball player. That's right. Crystal Carter: Okay. Yes. Good. So my softball- Mordy Oberstein: Doesn't know how to catch well lately, but yeah. Crystal Carter: Okay. So this is what I've learned from listening to Mordy for all these months and years. So if my softball team were like, "Hey, let's get a new player." And Aaron Jed was available and somehow he joined my team. Aaron Jed And would be bored and we wouldn't have the facilities, we wouldn't have the trainers, we wouldn't have the things to help this person to thrive and to help us. And so, it's important to make sure that you're set up for both things and that you're set up to be able to grow with this person, with this team, with this resource that you've got as well. So thinking about your maturity and what's the best fit for you right now and how that person might grow with you is super important. Mordy Oberstein: Could not answer that better myself. As we alluded to, who you hire and when, depends on the task at hand, but the nature of the task at hand depends at times upon the area of marketing that you're in. So let's compare and contrast who to hire or when to hire for a PPC team versus maybe an SEO team and beyond, as we invite Menachem Ani, founder of JXT Group to join us on a voyage into the funnel frontier. Welcome to the show, Menachem. How are you? Menachem Ani: I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Always fun to chat. Crystal Carter: It's always a pleasure to see you. I think the last time I saw you was in San Diego, I think, but we've done work across on the internet since then. But always great to see you and see what you're up to. Menachem Ani: Yeah, as you. Mordy Oberstein: I have one question for you. How does it feel to be on a podcast where they can pronounce your first name? Menachem Ani: It is unusual, I'll tell you that. Most people can't pronounce my first name. I use that as a spam filter on the phone. When the phone rings, if they can't pronounce my name right, I know it's spam. Mordy Oberstein: Or the IRS. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Either/or. Crystal Carter: I used to work with someone and his first name... He went by Thomas, not Tom. So if anybody called and they were like, "Is Tom there?" I was like, "No, he's not. You don't know him clearly, so no." Menachem Ani: What are you trying to tell me? Crystal Carter: Right, exactly. I love it when they're like, "Have you got five minutes?" I'm like, "Have you got a PO? Where can I send this invoice for this five minutes? I'm at work." Mordy Oberstein: That's good. I don't answer my phone anymore, so I don't get this problem. I just don't answer. Crystal Carter: You don't get calls from spam likely they call me. Mordy Oberstein: No, I do, but if I don't know the number. I just don't answer. Usually my kids' teachers, which also works when I don't answer. Anyhoo, enough about that. So hiring PPC versus SEO, or SEO versus content marketing, or PPC versus social media marketing. Is it all the same? What's the difference? Does it matter? Menachem Ani: Our focus is paid media, so that's where my experience comes from. I think that for me, a lot of it comes down to attention to detail, personality, things of that nature. Probably lines up well with some of the content stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I would imagine the PPC mindset is much more, I don't know, aggressive maybe, then let's say a content writer, let's say, creative writer, I mean. Menachem Ani: Yeah, so I think it's a little bit less creative and more analytical, because with paid media, you really have two kinds. You've got the Google stuff and the social stuff. Social does have a creative component to it. You really need to think with your creative brain, but even the analysis and then all of Google Search is primarily around analyzing things. You've got to have a very analytical brain for that. Crystal Carter: And I think that there's a lot of folks who have experience. Is experience enough in your opinion? Somebody who's like, "Oh, I've been doing this for this much time." Are you like, "Oh yeah, great, absolutely join the team." Or do you expect to see some of the stuff that they do? Are you more of a show don't tell kind of person? Menachem Ani: Yeah, I want to see how their brain works. And I'll do that by having conversations with them or ask them to look over a specific campaign. To me, experience is definitely important, but it's not everything. I think more important than experience is a personality like vibe check, will this person get along with others on the team? Do they have a can-do attitude? Do they want to get this done? Those are really important things. But also communication style. They can be the best at Google Ads, but if they don't answer an email in a timely fashion, it's like, "Okay." Crystal Carter: Right. Right. That can be a real sticky point. And I think that people think that the interview is the only part of the interview, but there's a lot more around that. So again, if you email them and it takes them three days to get back to you to say, "Yes, I want to..." That's a little bit tricky, isn't it? Menachem Ani: Yeah. I don't know. I might be looking at too much, but I'll look at spelling, grammar. Is the email too long? Is it too short? Are they answering what I really asked them? Are they just kind of fluffing over it? There's a lot of underlying stuff. I want to make sure that someone is thorough, detail-oriented and can get a job done. Mordy Oberstein: So you wouldn't hire Barry Schwartz, is what you're saying. Menachem Ani: It's not new. Mordy Oberstein: It's not grammatically correct. No, I'm just kidding. Menachem Ani: Barry's the best. We love Barry. Mordy Oberstein: Drill him a little bit. But that's interesting. Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, look, obviously if you're doing something with copy like PPC, where the spelling seriously matters, all right, you got a small grammar mistake in an SEO news article, no one's going to actually care, but in PPC, that's a huge deal, that you have one line to grab their attention. Menachem Ani: One line to grab their attention. A, it's got to be spelled right, proper grammar, punctuation, so on. But you really have to grab the user's attention. Your click-through rate is decided by how well that copy resonates with the user. So you got to be able to say complex things in short amount of space and really make it count. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, so then you would hire Barry. Sorry, go ahead Crystal. Sorry. Crystal Carter: So I talked to a lot of people who are looking to get started in SEO, looking to get their first job in SEO, people who were looking to get their first job generally. I was chatting to somebody recently and they sent me their CV and it looked like a MySpace page if I'm completely honest. There was lots of colors, there was lots of different fonts and stuff like that. What is your advice? And I was like, "Make it super basic." That was my advice to this person and the person since. But what is your advice to somebody who is new to the industry and wants to get a job in SEO right now or in PPC or at an agency, what would be your top point of advice? Menachem Ani: I think you got to start somewhere. Get educated. Google provides a lot of free resources. They have something called Skill Shop. You can take certifications, you can get yourself certified. Obviously there's some nuance there because you're being trained by Google who just, they want you to spend money, but it's the best place to start to understand the fundamentals of it and show that you've got at least a certification. From there, a lot of people start freelance, start small, run a family member or a friend's low-budget campaign. Just get in there. Get some experience so you can kind of play with it. But also there's a lot of great resources on different social media communities on Slack, so there's a lot you can learn and get to know people, just get into the industry. Crystal Carter: That's great. And I think that a lot of that is what we, just to shout out our own SEO course, it's one of the things that we put in there, is to make sure that there's lots of things that people can practically do and that people can show that they've been active in their learning process as well. What would be your top tip for somebody who's looking to hire one of these new people that's done all these courses and things? Menachem Ani: So honestly, sometimes it might be easier to hire somebody fresh who's just learning because so much has changed in paid search and paid social over the past few years, that a lot of people, their brains are stuck in the old way of thinking and it can hold you back from success. So it might be better. I don't know personally, I like to hire somebody with a couple of years experience and teach them our methodologies, but a fresh mind can grasp things quickly if they've got the right attitude. Hire them, teach them, and help find success together. Mordy Oberstein: I used to work for somebody who had a specific thing. He would only hire people who were not really there yet, because he wanted to train them his way and bring them up that way, which is an interesting way to go about it. Probably difficult in the beginning for sure. I mean, I've seen it. It's very difficult in the beginning. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Crystal Carter: But I think in order to do that, you have to have your processes together. You have to have a solid training foundation. Menachem Ani: For sure. Crystal Carter: Right. So is that something that you've worked on over the years? Menachem Ani: Definitely. I mean, we typically do hire people with some experience because that training process can be cumbersome if you're hiring somebody straight out of school or with very minimal experience. So I like to bring in people with a few years experience at least, and teach them our methodologies. But one of the things I look for in those initial conversations is, how do they like to set things up? Are they open-minded to the future forward way of thinking? Because shifting drastically, and if you're stuck in that old way, you can get lost. Mordy Oberstein: How has it changed? I'm curious. How has what you're looking for changed? Menachem Ani: Yeah, I mean, the old way of Google Ads was very manual, very granular. The new way is relying a lot more on algorithms and smart bidding. And you have to have an open mind to use broad match keywords where it's appropriate, and use smart bidding where it's appropriate, use newer campaign types that are more automated where it's appropriate. And a lot of people get stuck in like, "Oh, I would never do that." And it might be what's best for their clients, but they've never really tried it or they've tried it with a mindset that it's going to fail, and so it has. Mordy Oberstein: When you interview someone, you have a can of Mountain Dew, and if they're open to trying it, you're like, "Oh, okay, I'll hire them. They're open mind." If they're like, "Oh, that is disgusting. I'm not going anywhere near this," then no. Menachem Ani: Yeah, sometimes it's something like that. Mordy Oberstein: Not to bounce all over Mountain Dew, which is disgusting. Menachem Ani: I mean, I used to drink Mountain Dew every day, but I kind of gave it up. Mordy Oberstein: You will feel 30 years younger. Crystal Carter: Thank goodness. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: I don't know where to go to next after that. Crystal Carter: I don't know, someplace very refreshing. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, nice. What's the most refreshing interview experience you've ever had with an interviewee? Menachem Ani: Cool question. I think when they make me think, it feels refreshing. Because a lot of people just go along with industry standards, but for me it's like I want to learn something new every day. And if somebody can make me think that's refreshing. I know that this person wants to learn. Mordy Oberstein: Do you ever worry that person will leave, because they're super smart, super, I don't know, creative, on the ball, on the money, you know they're going to succeed in three or four years from now, but what happens in three or four years from now? Menachem Ani: Listen, it's on me to create a work environment that people want to stay in. So if they want to leave, I got to do something different there. Mordy Oberstein: Pay them more? Menachem Ani: Maybe. I don't know if it's just about that. It's about- Mordy Oberstein: No, it's not about that always. Menachem Ani: At the end of the day, we all want to enjoy what we do every day. Feel the challenge, feel rewarding in the work we do. When it gets boring or we work with clients that are not fun or the team that's not fun or a boss that's not fun, I think that's really where it starts to fall apart. Mordy Oberstein: It's all about fun. Menachem Ani: Have some Mountain Dew. Crystal Carter: But I think that the hiring process, I mean, Mordy mentioned people leaving. When you're thinking about hiring, you said that it's up to you to keep them engaged. When you're thinking about hiring folks, are you planning for them to be there a long term? I know that a lot of jobs these days, people jump around after a couple of years. Are you expecting them to be there for a long term? And does it change depending on the post, depending on the position? Menachem Ani: Yeah, I mean for us, we don't hire a ton. We're a small team. We want to try to bring people on who want to grow in the long term, give them a place to grow. So my hope is they'll stick around for a while. Therefore it's even more important to get the decision right, get that right person, because you want them to stick around for a while. Thankfully, we don't have a lot of turnover. We definitely do have some, but the goal is to do it in a way where people stay for a while. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. There's no other way to really build a culture and to really build a system if you're constantly changing people over, it's impossible. But it is harder now. I mean, if you looked at LinkedIn, people was like... I remember back in the day when you wrote on your CV or your resume, you were there for a year, the next job, you were there for a year, the next job you were there for a year. Oh, that looks bad. That's a red flag. A known red flag. That is literally LinkedIn now. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Crystal Carter: I am thrilled to announce. I'm thrilled to announce. Mordy Oberstein: Everyone congratulations. Crystal Carter: Right. Wow. Mordy Oberstein: Amazing, the amount of comments. Crystal Carter: Right. Right, right, right. Mordy Oberstein: That's good stuff. All right. So before we duly the part, what's your outlook on where the hiring market for PPC is going? Is it going to get more complicated? Is it going to get harder for you? Or is it hard to find people? Will it get harder to find people? Menachem Ani: It's definitely hard to find people because there's a lot of people who do paid media, but I think to find the ones that care, that will do good work, that will pay attention to all the little details. A lot of those people can find success on their own. Some of them would rather work in an agency environment because they get to interact with more people. But it's definitely getting harder, and as long as somebody stands out and does good work, they can always find a good home. Mordy Oberstein: That's great advice. Sure. Thank you. That is great advice. And with that, make sure you check out JXT Consulting. Don't click when you search for it on Google, don't click on the ad. Click on the organic result. Don't charge them money. And look for Menachem on social media. Where are you active these days? You're on X, you're still on X, you're on LinkedIn, no LinkedIn? Crystal Carter: He's on the Wix SEO Learning Hub. Go read his articles. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah. I always do that. I always forget. Menachem Ani: Wix SEO Learning Hub for sure. LinkedIn, Twitter, X as you call it. I'm still calling it Twitter. Sorry. Mordy Oberstein: I just started calling it X, because everyone else is. I'm like, "However." I've held out for so long. Crystal Carter: He's also on a YouTube recording of a webinar that we did on automation earlier in the year. And Menachem shares some fantastic resources for automation and tools that he uses at his own agency. Mordy Oberstein: To all those places, you'll be there. Menachem Ani: All those places. Mordy Oberstein: Well, thanks for being our guest and good luck with your hiring. Menachem Ani: Thank you. Mordy Oberstein: Once again, thank you, Menachem, for coming on. Really make sure to give him a follow, read his articles on the SEO Hub. And he writes for Search Engine Land a lot as well. You know who also writes a lot for Search Engine Land? Crystal Carter: Who's that? Mordy Oberstein: Danny Goodwin. But you know who also writes a lot for Search Engine Land? Crystal Carter: Anu Adegbola? Mordy Oberstein: I was just going to say that. You stole my thunder. But you know who also writes a little bit here and there for Search Engine Land? Crystal Carter: Don't know. Mordy Oberstein: Me neither, we'll find out. Crystal Carter: Can't think of anyone. Mordy Oberstein: Nah, Gary, Gary Bartz? Barry Schwartz. Barry Schwartz. But we usually quote him from Search Engine Roundtable anyway. So here's the Snappy News courtesy of probably SE Roundtable. Snappy news. Snappy news. Snappy News. Two for you this week. First up from Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Land. Google Search Console recommendations now fully live. If you follow, it's new, our Daily SEO News series, which you can check out each and every day except for Friday. We don't do Friday. Monday through Thursday. You'll know we've seen the test where Google is testing recommendations inside of Search Console. These recommendations are things like, "Hey, a page recently got fewer clicks than usual," or "A page got more clicks than usual" or "Recommendation display your three products on the shopping tab." Anyway, Google said that they are now live for all. Now, that doesn't mean you're actually going to see them, if Google has no recommendations, they're not going to show anything. By the way, if you're a Wix Studio user, you do have insights that are similar to this already built into your SEO dashboard if you connect to Google Search Console, so check them out there. Okay, onto Search Engine Journal. This from Matt Southern. Google Search sees UK decline. Users expressed low trust in AI. The decline was pretty small. This is according to Ofcom's Online Nation report. It went from user dropping from 86% to 83%. All right, to me, that's not like whatever. The interesting thing to me about this study, and I'll read to you what it says in the study, is the amount of trust. And again, these surveys are all, I would take them all with a grain of salt. It all depends how you ask the question, the result you get. I'm just pointing it out. I think it's interesting. I think it might be aligned to reality. That's why I'm reporting it, I guess. Anyway, the study says, "Although finding information or content is the most popular reason for using a generative AI tool, only a minority believe the information provided is reliable. The most popular reason for using a generative AI tool in the past was to find information on content report by 48% of internet users age 16 plus. And 13% of British online, eight to 15 year olds. Despite this, only 18% of those aged 16 or older said they thought the information from generative AI was reliable." That's interesting. I don't know if that lands for you. It lands for me. It's interesting. So I'm bringing it up here on this, the snappy news. I mentioned this a few weeks ago. I want to know is there actual roundtable? And if not, why already being lied to? Crystal Carter: I don't think he has a roundtable. I think he has an L-shaped table. I've seen it in his office. Mordy Oberstein: Maybe he has another table at a camera shot and it's a roundtable. Crystal Carter: No, I don't think so. Mordy Oberstein: Maybe he has a dollhouse. In the Dollhouse is the SEO roundtable. Crystal Carter: It's a tiny little SEO dollhouse. Mordy Oberstein: SEO is picking tea. Crystal Carter: Right. And it's just lots of tiny little... There's a little tiny John Mueller and there's a little tiny, tiny Barry Schwartz, and there's a little tiny Mordy Oberstein, and there's lots of little tiny people talking about SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Is that like... Well, I guess you could probably say that in reality there's a lot of little tiny people talking about SEO, but we're not going to go there. What we are going to go to is our follow of the week who is not a tiny person. He's a giant of the industry, Will Reynolds. Crystal Carter: A titan, if you will. Mordy Oberstein: A Titan, yes. Will Reynolds give him a follow over on, probably LinkedIn is probably the best place now. His content on LinkedIn is fabulous, by the way. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: Really intriguing questions. Love your content, Will, on LinkedIn. Crystal Carter: Will's fantastic, very frank. And he's been running his agency for years. And they are super inventive and super on the pulse of what's going on. And he's got some great insights on teams, on managing content, on AI, on lots of different things. So yeah, shout-out to Will Reynolds. Also previous contributor to the SERP'S Up SEO podcast, so- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, that's right. That's right. Crystal Carter: ... go check in the archives and check out some of those insights there as well. But big shout-out to Will, great follow. Mordy Oberstein: Absolutely. But you mentioned, by the way, from Sierra Interactive, that's Will's agency. We should have mentioned that earlier in his bio, but we didn't. This is the kind of people who have jellyfish as pets. I told you we'd get back to it. Crystal Carter: I would love to have a jellyfish as a pet potential or maybe a Portuguese man-of-war, which is not a jellyfish, it's actually a colony. Mordy Oberstein: Nothing about that sounds peaceful. Crystal Carter: Dude, the Portuguese man-of-war are fascinating, because they're like the borg. It's a bunch of clones that do different things. It's an amazing creature. Mordy Oberstein: It's what I've always wanted for a pet. Crystal Carter: I'd love one. I don't think I'd have a fish tank big enough. Mordy Oberstein: We should do it. Crystal Carter: One can hope. Mordy Oberstein: Well, on that happy note. Thank you for joining us on this SERP'S Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry, we're back next week at the new episode as we dive into how to know what your audience is actually looking for. Look for wherever you consume on your podcast or on the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/SEO/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO, check out all the great content and webinars over on the Wix Studio, SEO Learning about, you guessed it, wix.com/SEO/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love an SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Mordy Oberstein Crystal Carter Menachem Ani Wil Reynolds Resources: Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter SEO Resource Center It's New: Daily SEO News Series Rankix Wix App Bring automation and AI into your sales funnel Wix Studio SEO Course JXT Group News: Google Search Console recommendations now fully live Google Search Sees UK Decline, Users Express Low Trust In AI Online Nation 2024 Report Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Mordy Oberstein Crystal Carter Menachem Ani Wil Reynolds Resources: Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter SEO Resource Center It's New: Daily SEO News Series Rankix Wix App Bring automation and AI into your sales funnel Wix Studio SEO Course JXT Group News: Google Search Console recommendations now fully live Google Search Sees UK Decline, Users Express Low Trust In AI Online Nation 2024 Report Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP'S Up. Aloha. Mahalo for joining the SERP'S Up Podcast, we're focusing on some groovy insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm already overseeing the SEO brand here at Wix. I'm joined by the ever insightful, the ever sharing the ever joyful, the ever present, the ever lasting. The ever lasting gobstopper. Crystal Carter, head of communications, SEO Communications here at Wix. Crystal Carter: Bless you for trying to come up with a list for 104, 100 and whatever, how many? Mordy Oberstein: 113. 113. Crystal Carter: A 113 episodes. Mordy Oberstein: We should do a top list. Top list, top ways I describe Crystal Carter. It could be a list- Crystal Carter: A supercut of all of them. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: And it would be like 10 minutes long. I appreciate you. Thank you. It's very kind of you, be very kind and generous and descriptive, Mordy Oberstein. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, keep going. Don't stop. This SERP'S Up podcast is brought to you by Wix Studio, where you can only subscribe to our SEO newsletter, Search Light, over at wix.com/SEO/newsletter and take our SEO courses. Or you can also expand your revenue possibilities or revenue sharing program by selling custom templates or by adding custom apps to our app markets. So expand your revenue possibilities with Wix Studio. This, so you can expand your revenue possibilities so that you can grow your team, as today we're covering how digital marketing teams of all kinds can know who to hire and when. How industry changes factor into the hiring process. New hires and getting ahead of the demand curve. And how to know what skills to value in a new hire. We sit down with Menachem Ani to discuss how the hiring process differs from one type of marketing team to another. And of course we have your snappiest of SEO news and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. So get ready to nod and say, "Mm-hmm, aha." And ask questions like what's your biggest weakness? As we help you navigate the hiring process on the 113th episode of the SERP'S Up podcast. My biggest weakness is that I have none. Crystal Carter: One time in an interview they were like, "What's your biggest weakness?" And I hate that question. Why would I tell you that? Mordy Oberstein: It's candy, carbs. Crystal Carter: No. I said, my biggest weakness is that I'm too awesome. And Lily's like, "What?" I was like, "I'm just too awesome. People really struggle with how awesome I am, and it's a lot to bear." And I did not get hired. But I did finally get to say that, which I'd always wanted to say. Mordy Oberstein: That would be amazing if you just list your actual bigness weaknesses. Crystal Carter: Oh my God. Mordy Oberstein: That'd be like a therapy session. Crystal Carter: It's like, "Well, I have a tendency to be attracted to unavailable people. It's something I really struggle... Struggle with that. And one time when I was seven years old, I had a jellyfish, and the jellyfish met a really tragic end and I find that that trauma has stayed with me- Mordy Oberstein: A jellyfish? Crystal Carter: No, I don't know. I'm just saying things. Mordy Oberstein: It was a jellyfish. Crystal Carter: I would love to have a jellyfish. It's very relaxing to watch them swim. Mordy Oberstein: No, it is. I just don't know if anyone's had a jellyfish. Crystal Carter: Listeners of SERP'S Up podcast, if you have a jellyfish or have ever been the caretaker of a jellyfish, please, please share your stories. Mordy Oberstein: Before we get into more about jellyfish, which I'm sure we'll come back to the end of this podcast somehow, some way. And before we get to Menachem Ani, who's going to talk about how the hiring process and what you should be looking for and what you should be doing, differs from one kind of marketing team to another kind of marketing team. Let's talk about the general things that all digital marketing teams should be thinking about when trying to hire new employees. I'll start with budget. Yeah, budget's going to be a big one. I'm not sure how yet, but I speculate that somehow budget is going to factor into your hiring process. Crystal Carter: And it also varies between teams. So agency teams will have different budget considerations from people who are working in-house. People who are working in-house at a private company will have different considerations from people who are working for, say, an NGO or a charity or a local authority or a government organization, and things like that. And I think also the risk that you can take and the cost of that will change as well. So some teams have a really, really long hiring processes and that can be a challenge for people that are looking to get hired. They're like, "I don't have six months to give you. I don't know that it should take six months, but I don't have six, seven meetings to give you in order to potentially get hired in this role." That's something that people sometimes struggle with. But for big teams, that can be the process. It can take weeks and weeks and lots of rounds of interviews. And part of that is because the cost of hiring will include a recruiter, will include the time of going through all of those CVs and all of that sort of stuff. And people want to hire well so they don't have to do it again because the cost of hiring can be very, very high. And that's even before you get to paying someone. So these things will definitely come into consideration when people are thinking about hiring. And it's certainly something that if you're trying to get a new person on your team, you have to include that in the business case, that it's worth it and that it will yield this ROI and all of that sort of stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. And it could be a little bit tricky, you're not just dealing with current performance and current ROI, you're trying to hire somebody because you're trying to facilitate potential growth and potential budget. So what your growth is now, what the numbers are now, what would that be if you actually hired that person? I'll give you a horrible example of what I mean by this, but if you want to say a free agent in sports, so how are we going to spend all that money hiring this big name? But yeah, when you think about how many butts are they going to put in the seats, I'll have so much more money. Crystal Carter: Right. And how many jerseys are we going to sell? Mordy Oberstein: All that kind of stuff, yeah, exactly. Crystal Carter: Yeah. And I think that when you're thinking about that growth and you're trying to figure out is this person, is this role valuable? Will it be able to yield the value? You have to think about for an individual person, you can look at their previous track record. If you had a sports person, you say, "Well, they've won this many championships. They'll probably do a good job for us." If you got somebody more in a corporate space, business space, then you can look at their track record, look at people who have worked with them and the kinds of things that they're able to do. And also I think it's important to think about the gaps in your business. So if you look at your team and you do maybe a skills matrix and you say, "In our team, we don't have a PPC person. If we hired a PPC person, we could offer PPC. Currently we cannot. And we keep trying to, and it's hit-and-miss, but if we hired a dedicated PPC expert, then we would be able to offer this PPC service," for instance. And that growth, you can prospect that. You can say, "We would be able to see a 10% lift in profitability, we'd be able to offer this to this many clients," that sort of thing as well. So that's really important. And I think that when you're thinking about if you're in-house and you're looking to hire in SEO support via an agency or a freelancer, you can also do the same sort of maths where you look at, "Our business doesn't have PPC, for instance, and if we did PPC for this cost, then we'd be able to make this profit." And that's something to think about. Mordy Oberstein: Right. And that's where you really have to think about what the problem is you're trying to solve. And really, really understand the problem you're trying to solve. Because then you can go a million different directions. We can make more money by offering PPC. We don't have a PPC person. Great, we'll hire a PPC person. But you might have a situation where you have multiple problems that you need to fill and you need somebody who's able to handle multiple problems. So you might need someone who, I don't know, who can do SEO and create content, or could do PPC and also knows how to do social media, whatever it might be. Sometimes you need more of a generalist, sometimes you need more of a specialist. And you need to better understand what your problems are in order to understand what direction you need to go with the hire. One thing I do see teams try to do, and I think it's a point of caution, is the generalist seems more cost-effective because they can do multiple things, so I'll hire a generalist. But you're not really thinking long-term like, yes, they might be able to do more things, but can they do better? And can they create better growth? And that one person who is really good at that one thing might be able to fill your problem in such a great way, that they're able to better grow your business. Even though it seems counterintuitive, but it's not. Crystal Carter: Whenever I think about furniture or things like that, sometimes they're like, "Oh, this chair also converts into a bed and also converts into a this. And also just- Mordy Oberstein: It's uncomfortable. All of them are uncomfortable. Crystal Carter: All of them are uncomfortable. Mordy Oberstein: All of them are uncomfortable. I know exactly where you're going with that. Crystal Carter: You know what I'm talking about? Mordy Oberstein: Yes, I had that chair. Crystal Carter: Or one of them will break. Mordy Oberstein: It's like when you buy a futon, don't do it. It's not usable for either. Crystal Carter: It's not usable. And then one of the bits will break, and then you have neither a sofa nor- Mordy Oberstein: You have a futon mattress on the floor. Crystal Carter: Right. You have nothing. And I'm not saying the generalists do this. I'm not saying that at all. However, sometimes you will have a generalist... Generalist people, particularly generalist marketers are very good at trying new things. That's how they became generalists. They're really interested in lots of new things. So they're a great place if you're like, "Hey, let's see if we can do AI stuff. Let's see what can we do to do AI content creation or something like that." Your generalist is a great person to start and get you going on whether or not this is something that fits into lots of things, will work. And then they're used to using lots of tools and they'll be able to see lots of opportunities there. Once they get you going, then you can make a business case for getting a specialist. And your generalist will obviously keep an eye and that sort of thing. But then it's a good time for you to be thinking about getting a specialist. And a specialist will help you to be really laser focused on getting that value. And when you're thinking about hiring, that's a great thing. When we think about new projects, when we think about getting new support, we very often will do a POC. So we will do a proof of concept, so you're not just flying blind, you're not just making it up as you go. And sometimes with hiring people will get a temp for a little while. And I've had full-time roles where I started as a temp. And I started as a temp, and then they were like, "Oh, this works great. Having this person here to do this works really great." Then you come on full time. Similarly, you could maybe get, and people think about this for agency stuff as well, so for instance, if you get an agency support, you might have that person come on or that team come on and do a project for you, a small project to see if that's a viable channel for you. Maybe you've never done a link billing campaign before, and so maybe they come on and do a little project for you. And then you're like, "Okay, this is great. We could roll this out across multiple channels or multiple parts of the business." And then you can get into a more long-term situation. But yeah, proof of concept is really valuable. Mordy Oberstein: It's great because then you can also really see what kind of person are they. On the CV or when you interview them, you can see like, "I know their skills. I know that they're competent, I know that maybe they're friendly," whatever, you can get some general. But you really want to understand, do they fit into what you actually need, the way that they work and how they operate and how they think, that's very hard, very, very hard to do. I want to hit one more point before we get to Menachem, and that's understand what skills to value. And that can change based upon, you see this right now in the market, what's emerging, what's upcoming, what's happening? If the ecosystem is shifting one way, while you might need that person now, will you still need that person in a year from now or that skill in a year from now? You see that with AI. And what makes it hard, by the way, is A, predicting, and also not getting caught up, like in the AI. It's hard to predict where it's going to go. And at the same time, it's hard not to get caught up in it. So you might hire, "Oh, we're going to hire a prompt engineer," but maybe you won't need that in a year from now, maybe you're overestimating where AI is going to be at in a year. I don't know, I'm making that up. But it's easy to see that as an example. Crystal Carter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that the market changes you need to think about aren't just from the wider market, but also from your team. So I've definitely known folks who were great, brilliant marketers, and they got settled in with a team that maybe was moving at a different pace than they were used to. And so, if you're in a fast-moving consumer goods, if you're in a B2C apparel sort of business, that e-comm timeline, those timelines are quick. Those are quick turnarounds. Whereas if somebody's in more of a lead gen space, then if somebody's used to e-comm pace, they'll be very surprised at the lead gen stuff where it might take three, four or five months to close a deal, for instance, and they'll need different things from marketing. So I think that it's important to get that bit. I know somebody who recently hired somebody who was great, they were a great AI person, and they were going to help them with their AI things. And in the end, the skills were there, but it wasn't a great fit for the team. And that's something to think about as well, where your team is at in your maturity in terms of having this person there. Do you have the setup to help that person thrive? Mordy Oberstein: That's a brilliant point. Yeah. Crystal Carter: For instance, if we had... My softball team got, I don't know, name a baseball player, Aaron Jed, is that a baseball player? Mordy Oberstein: Aaron Jed's, a baseball player. That's right. Crystal Carter: Okay. Yes. Good. So my softball- Mordy Oberstein: Doesn't know how to catch well lately, but yeah. Crystal Carter: Okay. So this is what I've learned from listening to Mordy for all these months and years. So if my softball team were like, "Hey, let's get a new player." And Aaron Jed was available and somehow he joined my team. Aaron Jed And would be bored and we wouldn't have the facilities, we wouldn't have the trainers, we wouldn't have the things to help this person to thrive and to help us. And so, it's important to make sure that you're set up for both things and that you're set up to be able to grow with this person, with this team, with this resource that you've got as well. So thinking about your maturity and what's the best fit for you right now and how that person might grow with you is super important. Mordy Oberstein: Could not answer that better myself. As we alluded to, who you hire and when, depends on the task at hand, but the nature of the task at hand depends at times upon the area of marketing that you're in. So let's compare and contrast who to hire or when to hire for a PPC team versus maybe an SEO team and beyond, as we invite Menachem Ani, founder of JXT Group to join us on a voyage into the funnel frontier. Welcome to the show, Menachem. How are you? Menachem Ani: I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Always fun to chat. Crystal Carter: It's always a pleasure to see you. I think the last time I saw you was in San Diego, I think, but we've done work across on the internet since then. But always great to see you and see what you're up to. Menachem Ani: Yeah, as you. Mordy Oberstein: I have one question for you. How does it feel to be on a podcast where they can pronounce your first name? Menachem Ani: It is unusual, I'll tell you that. Most people can't pronounce my first name. I use that as a spam filter on the phone. When the phone rings, if they can't pronounce my name right, I know it's spam. Mordy Oberstein: Or the IRS. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Either/or. Crystal Carter: I used to work with someone and his first name... He went by Thomas, not Tom. So if anybody called and they were like, "Is Tom there?" I was like, "No, he's not. You don't know him clearly, so no." Menachem Ani: What are you trying to tell me? Crystal Carter: Right, exactly. I love it when they're like, "Have you got five minutes?" I'm like, "Have you got a PO? Where can I send this invoice for this five minutes? I'm at work." Mordy Oberstein: That's good. I don't answer my phone anymore, so I don't get this problem. I just don't answer. Crystal Carter: You don't get calls from spam likely they call me. Mordy Oberstein: No, I do, but if I don't know the number. I just don't answer. Usually my kids' teachers, which also works when I don't answer. Anyhoo, enough about that. So hiring PPC versus SEO, or SEO versus content marketing, or PPC versus social media marketing. Is it all the same? What's the difference? Does it matter? Menachem Ani: Our focus is paid media, so that's where my experience comes from. I think that for me, a lot of it comes down to attention to detail, personality, things of that nature. Probably lines up well with some of the content stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I would imagine the PPC mindset is much more, I don't know, aggressive maybe, then let's say a content writer, let's say, creative writer, I mean. Menachem Ani: Yeah, so I think it's a little bit less creative and more analytical, because with paid media, you really have two kinds. You've got the Google stuff and the social stuff. Social does have a creative component to it. You really need to think with your creative brain, but even the analysis and then all of Google Search is primarily around analyzing things. You've got to have a very analytical brain for that. Crystal Carter: And I think that there's a lot of folks who have experience. Is experience enough in your opinion? Somebody who's like, "Oh, I've been doing this for this much time." Are you like, "Oh yeah, great, absolutely join the team." Or do you expect to see some of the stuff that they do? Are you more of a show don't tell kind of person? Menachem Ani: Yeah, I want to see how their brain works. And I'll do that by having conversations with them or ask them to look over a specific campaign. To me, experience is definitely important, but it's not everything. I think more important than experience is a personality like vibe check, will this person get along with others on the team? Do they have a can-do attitude? Do they want to get this done? Those are really important things. But also communication style. They can be the best at Google Ads, but if they don't answer an email in a timely fashion, it's like, "Okay." Crystal Carter: Right. Right. That can be a real sticky point. And I think that people think that the interview is the only part of the interview, but there's a lot more around that. So again, if you email them and it takes them three days to get back to you to say, "Yes, I want to..." That's a little bit tricky, isn't it? Menachem Ani: Yeah. I don't know. I might be looking at too much, but I'll look at spelling, grammar. Is the email too long? Is it too short? Are they answering what I really asked them? Are they just kind of fluffing over it? There's a lot of underlying stuff. I want to make sure that someone is thorough, detail-oriented and can get a job done. Mordy Oberstein: So you wouldn't hire Barry Schwartz, is what you're saying. Menachem Ani: It's not new. Mordy Oberstein: It's not grammatically correct. No, I'm just kidding. Menachem Ani: Barry's the best. We love Barry. Mordy Oberstein: Drill him a little bit. But that's interesting. Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, look, obviously if you're doing something with copy like PPC, where the spelling seriously matters, all right, you got a small grammar mistake in an SEO news article, no one's going to actually care, but in PPC, that's a huge deal, that you have one line to grab their attention. Menachem Ani: One line to grab their attention. A, it's got to be spelled right, proper grammar, punctuation, so on. But you really have to grab the user's attention. Your click-through rate is decided by how well that copy resonates with the user. So you got to be able to say complex things in short amount of space and really make it count. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, so then you would hire Barry. Sorry, go ahead Crystal. Sorry. Crystal Carter: So I talked to a lot of people who are looking to get started in SEO, looking to get their first job in SEO, people who were looking to get their first job generally. I was chatting to somebody recently and they sent me their CV and it looked like a MySpace page if I'm completely honest. There was lots of colors, there was lots of different fonts and stuff like that. What is your advice? And I was like, "Make it super basic." That was my advice to this person and the person since. But what is your advice to somebody who is new to the industry and wants to get a job in SEO right now or in PPC or at an agency, what would be your top point of advice? Menachem Ani: I think you got to start somewhere. Get educated. Google provides a lot of free resources. They have something called Skill Shop. You can take certifications, you can get yourself certified. Obviously there's some nuance there because you're being trained by Google who just, they want you to spend money, but it's the best place to start to understand the fundamentals of it and show that you've got at least a certification. From there, a lot of people start freelance, start small, run a family member or a friend's low-budget campaign. Just get in there. Get some experience so you can kind of play with it. But also there's a lot of great resources on different social media communities on Slack, so there's a lot you can learn and get to know people, just get into the industry. Crystal Carter: That's great. And I think that a lot of that is what we, just to shout out our own SEO course, it's one of the things that we put in there, is to make sure that there's lots of things that people can practically do and that people can show that they've been active in their learning process as well. What would be your top tip for somebody who's looking to hire one of these new people that's done all these courses and things? Menachem Ani: So honestly, sometimes it might be easier to hire somebody fresh who's just learning because so much has changed in paid search and paid social over the past few years, that a lot of people, their brains are stuck in the old way of thinking and it can hold you back from success. So it might be better. I don't know personally, I like to hire somebody with a couple of years experience and teach them our methodologies, but a fresh mind can grasp things quickly if they've got the right attitude. Hire them, teach them, and help find success together. Mordy Oberstein: I used to work for somebody who had a specific thing. He would only hire people who were not really there yet, because he wanted to train them his way and bring them up that way, which is an interesting way to go about it. Probably difficult in the beginning for sure. I mean, I've seen it. It's very difficult in the beginning. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Crystal Carter: But I think in order to do that, you have to have your processes together. You have to have a solid training foundation. Menachem Ani: For sure. Crystal Carter: Right. So is that something that you've worked on over the years? Menachem Ani: Definitely. I mean, we typically do hire people with some experience because that training process can be cumbersome if you're hiring somebody straight out of school or with very minimal experience. So I like to bring in people with a few years experience at least, and teach them our methodologies. But one of the things I look for in those initial conversations is, how do they like to set things up? Are they open-minded to the future forward way of thinking? Because shifting drastically, and if you're stuck in that old way, you can get lost. Mordy Oberstein: How has it changed? I'm curious. How has what you're looking for changed? Menachem Ani: Yeah, I mean, the old way of Google Ads was very manual, very granular. The new way is relying a lot more on algorithms and smart bidding. And you have to have an open mind to use broad match keywords where it's appropriate, and use smart bidding where it's appropriate, use newer campaign types that are more automated where it's appropriate. And a lot of people get stuck in like, "Oh, I would never do that." And it might be what's best for their clients, but they've never really tried it or they've tried it with a mindset that it's going to fail, and so it has. Mordy Oberstein: When you interview someone, you have a can of Mountain Dew, and if they're open to trying it, you're like, "Oh, okay, I'll hire them. They're open mind." If they're like, "Oh, that is disgusting. I'm not going anywhere near this," then no. Menachem Ani: Yeah, sometimes it's something like that. Mordy Oberstein: Not to bounce all over Mountain Dew, which is disgusting. Menachem Ani: I mean, I used to drink Mountain Dew every day, but I kind of gave it up. Mordy Oberstein: You will feel 30 years younger. Crystal Carter: Thank goodness. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: I don't know where to go to next after that. Crystal Carter: I don't know, someplace very refreshing. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, nice. What's the most refreshing interview experience you've ever had with an interviewee? Menachem Ani: Cool question. I think when they make me think, it feels refreshing. Because a lot of people just go along with industry standards, but for me it's like I want to learn something new every day. And if somebody can make me think that's refreshing. I know that this person wants to learn. Mordy Oberstein: Do you ever worry that person will leave, because they're super smart, super, I don't know, creative, on the ball, on the money, you know they're going to succeed in three or four years from now, but what happens in three or four years from now? Menachem Ani: Listen, it's on me to create a work environment that people want to stay in. So if they want to leave, I got to do something different there. Mordy Oberstein: Pay them more? Menachem Ani: Maybe. I don't know if it's just about that. It's about- Mordy Oberstein: No, it's not about that always. Menachem Ani: At the end of the day, we all want to enjoy what we do every day. Feel the challenge, feel rewarding in the work we do. When it gets boring or we work with clients that are not fun or the team that's not fun or a boss that's not fun, I think that's really where it starts to fall apart. Mordy Oberstein: It's all about fun. Menachem Ani: Have some Mountain Dew. Crystal Carter: But I think that the hiring process, I mean, Mordy mentioned people leaving. When you're thinking about hiring, you said that it's up to you to keep them engaged. When you're thinking about hiring folks, are you planning for them to be there a long term? I know that a lot of jobs these days, people jump around after a couple of years. Are you expecting them to be there for a long term? And does it change depending on the post, depending on the position? Menachem Ani: Yeah, I mean for us, we don't hire a ton. We're a small team. We want to try to bring people on who want to grow in the long term, give them a place to grow. So my hope is they'll stick around for a while. Therefore it's even more important to get the decision right, get that right person, because you want them to stick around for a while. Thankfully, we don't have a lot of turnover. We definitely do have some, but the goal is to do it in a way where people stay for a while. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. There's no other way to really build a culture and to really build a system if you're constantly changing people over, it's impossible. But it is harder now. I mean, if you looked at LinkedIn, people was like... I remember back in the day when you wrote on your CV or your resume, you were there for a year, the next job, you were there for a year, the next job you were there for a year. Oh, that looks bad. That's a red flag. A known red flag. That is literally LinkedIn now. Menachem Ani: Yeah. Crystal Carter: I am thrilled to announce. I'm thrilled to announce. Mordy Oberstein: Everyone congratulations. Crystal Carter: Right. Wow. Mordy Oberstein: Amazing, the amount of comments. Crystal Carter: Right. Right, right, right. Mordy Oberstein: That's good stuff. All right. So before we duly the part, what's your outlook on where the hiring market for PPC is going? Is it going to get more complicated? Is it going to get harder for you? Or is it hard to find people? Will it get harder to find people? Menachem Ani: It's definitely hard to find people because there's a lot of people who do paid media, but I think to find the ones that care, that will do good work, that will pay attention to all the little details. A lot of those people can find success on their own. Some of them would rather work in an agency environment because they get to interact with more people. But it's definitely getting harder, and as long as somebody stands out and does good work, they can always find a good home. Mordy Oberstein: That's great advice. Sure. Thank you. That is great advice. And with that, make sure you check out JXT Consulting. Don't click when you search for it on Google, don't click on the ad. Click on the organic result. Don't charge them money. And look for Menachem on social media. Where are you active these days? You're on X, you're still on X, you're on LinkedIn, no LinkedIn? Crystal Carter: He's on the Wix SEO Learning Hub. Go read his articles. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah. I always do that. I always forget. Menachem Ani: Wix SEO Learning Hub for sure. LinkedIn, Twitter, X as you call it. I'm still calling it Twitter. Sorry. Mordy Oberstein: I just started calling it X, because everyone else is. I'm like, "However." I've held out for so long. Crystal Carter: He's also on a YouTube recording of a webinar that we did on automation earlier in the year. And Menachem shares some fantastic resources for automation and tools that he uses at his own agency. Mordy Oberstein: To all those places, you'll be there. Menachem Ani: All those places. Mordy Oberstein: Well, thanks for being our guest and good luck with your hiring. Menachem Ani: Thank you. Mordy Oberstein: Once again, thank you, Menachem, for coming on. Really make sure to give him a follow, read his articles on the SEO Hub. And he writes for Search Engine Land a lot as well. You know who also writes a lot for Search Engine Land? Crystal Carter: Who's that? Mordy Oberstein: Danny Goodwin. But you know who also writes a lot for Search Engine Land? Crystal Carter: Anu Adegbola? Mordy Oberstein: I was just going to say that. You stole my thunder. But you know who also writes a little bit here and there for Search Engine Land? Crystal Carter: Don't know. Mordy Oberstein: Me neither, we'll find out. Crystal Carter: Can't think of anyone. Mordy Oberstein: Nah, Gary, Gary Bartz? Barry Schwartz. Barry Schwartz. But we usually quote him from Search Engine Roundtable anyway. So here's the Snappy News courtesy of probably SE Roundtable. Snappy news. Snappy news. Snappy News. Two for you this week. First up from Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Land. Google Search Console recommendations now fully live. If you follow, it's new, our Daily SEO News series, which you can check out each and every day except for Friday. We don't do Friday. Monday through Thursday. You'll know we've seen the test where Google is testing recommendations inside of Search Console. These recommendations are things like, "Hey, a page recently got fewer clicks than usual," or "A page got more clicks than usual" or "Recommendation display your three products on the shopping tab." Anyway, Google said that they are now live for all. Now, that doesn't mean you're actually going to see them, if Google has no recommendations, they're not going to show anything. By the way, if you're a Wix Studio user, you do have insights that are similar to this already built into your SEO dashboard if you connect to Google Search Console, so check them out there. Okay, onto Search Engine Journal. This from Matt Southern. Google Search sees UK decline. Users expressed low trust in AI. The decline was pretty small. This is according to Ofcom's Online Nation report. It went from user dropping from 86% to 83%. All right, to me, that's not like whatever. The interesting thing to me about this study, and I'll read to you what it says in the study, is the amount of trust. And again, these surveys are all, I would take them all with a grain of salt. It all depends how you ask the question, the result you get. I'm just pointing it out. I think it's interesting. I think it might be aligned to reality. That's why I'm reporting it, I guess. Anyway, the study says, "Although finding information or content is the most popular reason for using a generative AI tool, only a minority believe the information provided is reliable. The most popular reason for using a generative AI tool in the past was to find information on content report by 48% of internet users age 16 plus. And 13% of British online, eight to 15 year olds. Despite this, only 18% of those aged 16 or older said they thought the information from generative AI was reliable." That's interesting. I don't know if that lands for you. It lands for me. It's interesting. So I'm bringing it up here on this, the snappy news. I mentioned this a few weeks ago. I want to know is there actual roundtable? And if not, why already being lied to? Crystal Carter: I don't think he has a roundtable. I think he has an L-shaped table. I've seen it in his office. Mordy Oberstein: Maybe he has another table at a camera shot and it's a roundtable. Crystal Carter: No, I don't think so. Mordy Oberstein: Maybe he has a dollhouse. In the Dollhouse is the SEO roundtable. Crystal Carter: It's a tiny little SEO dollhouse. Mordy Oberstein: SEO is picking tea. Crystal Carter: Right. And it's just lots of tiny little... There's a little tiny John Mueller and there's a little tiny, tiny Barry Schwartz, and there's a little tiny Mordy Oberstein, and there's lots of little tiny people talking about SEO. Mordy Oberstein: Is that like... Well, I guess you could probably say that in reality there's a lot of little tiny people talking about SEO, but we're not going to go there. What we are going to go to is our follow of the week who is not a tiny person. He's a giant of the industry, Will Reynolds. Crystal Carter: A titan, if you will. Mordy Oberstein: A Titan, yes. Will Reynolds give him a follow over on, probably LinkedIn is probably the best place now. His content on LinkedIn is fabulous, by the way. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: Really intriguing questions. Love your content, Will, on LinkedIn. Crystal Carter: Will's fantastic, very frank. And he's been running his agency for years. And they are super inventive and super on the pulse of what's going on. And he's got some great insights on teams, on managing content, on AI, on lots of different things. So yeah, shout-out to Will Reynolds. Also previous contributor to the SERP'S Up SEO podcast, so- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, that's right. That's right. Crystal Carter: ... go check in the archives and check out some of those insights there as well. But big shout-out to Will, great follow. Mordy Oberstein: Absolutely. But you mentioned, by the way, from Sierra Interactive, that's Will's agency. We should have mentioned that earlier in his bio, but we didn't. This is the kind of people who have jellyfish as pets. I told you we'd get back to it. Crystal Carter: I would love to have a jellyfish as a pet potential or maybe a Portuguese man-of-war, which is not a jellyfish, it's actually a colony. Mordy Oberstein: Nothing about that sounds peaceful. Crystal Carter: Dude, the Portuguese man-of-war are fascinating, because they're like the borg. It's a bunch of clones that do different things. It's an amazing creature. Mordy Oberstein: It's what I've always wanted for a pet. Crystal Carter: I'd love one. I don't think I'd have a fish tank big enough. Mordy Oberstein: We should do it. Crystal Carter: One can hope. Mordy Oberstein: Well, on that happy note. Thank you for joining us on this SERP'S Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry, we're back next week at the new episode as we dive into how to know what your audience is actually looking for. Look for wherever you consume on your podcast or on the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/SEO/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO, check out all the great content and webinars over on the Wix Studio, SEO Learning about, you guessed it, wix.com/SEO/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love an SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

How do you effectively repurpose content for Google Search? What types of assets should you be repurposing? Can AI help with repurposing content at scale? In this episode, Wix’s own Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter dive deep into repurposing your audio and video content for Search. Joining the show is LinkedIn’s very own Purna Virji to demonstrate the benefits of repurposing content at scale. Plus, take a directional look into where the SERP is headed for of audio and video content. Ready to get the most out of your content with max efficiency? The SERP’s Up SEO Podcast takes repurposing content for organic search head-on! Back Repurposing your content for search How do you effectively repurpose content for Google Search? What types of assets should you be repurposing? Can AI help with repurposing content at scale? In this episode, Wix’s own Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter dive deep into repurposing your audio and video content for Search. Joining the show is LinkedIn’s very own Purna Virji to demonstrate the benefits of repurposing content at scale. Plus, take a directional look into where the SERP is headed for of audio and video content. Ready to get the most out of your content with max efficiency? The SERP’s Up SEO Podcast takes repurposing content for organic search head-on! Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 48 | July 26, 2023 | 42 MIN 00:00 / 42:13 This week’s guests Purna Virji Purna Virji is the author of High-Impact Content Marketing and Principal Content Solutions Consultant at LinkedIn. She has been named by Adweek on their Young Influentials List, was crowned the Search Personality of the Year by the US Search Awards and was named by PPC Hero as the #1 Most Influential Expert in the world. Prior to joining LinkedIn, Purna led global learning and thought leadership programs for Microsoft. An award-winning former journalist, Purna is an avid traveler, aspiring top chef, and enthusiastic tennis player in her spare time. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha. Mahalo for joining the SERP's Up podcast. We're pushing out some groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the head of SEO branding here at Wix, and I'm joined by the amazing, the fabulous, the un-impeccable, the uncomparable, the one, the only head of SEO communications here at Wix, Crystal J. Carter. Crystal Carter: Oh, snap. Mordy Oberstein: I don't think I've ever used your middle initial before. Crystal Carter: Oh, yeah, that's what I was saying. That's why I was like, oh no, it's gotten real because like we're pulling out. We're pulling out. It's like when your mom calls you and she uses your full name and you're like, oh, snap. Mordy Oberstein: Not good. Things are bad. Crystal Carter: Things are happening now. Mordy Oberstein: When that happens, things are definitely bad. Crystal Carter: I did not clean my room and I'm about to hear all about it, that kind of thing. Oh, no. Mordy Oberstein: But I didn't realize this until right now, by the way, which is just terrible. We have the same middle initial. Crystal Carter: Oh. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: I doubt it's the same name. I don't want to discuss my middle name, but I doubt it's the same. Mordy Oberstein: It's not Jacob? Crystal Carter: Jacob is a good name. I like that as a name because you can short it to Jake. You can shorten it to Jake. Mordy Oberstein: Jake, yeah. Crystal Carter: Jake's a good name. Mordy Oberstein: Jake The Snake. Crystal Carter: What's it called? Was it like Big Man Jake or something? Was that a movie or something? Mordy Oberstein: It might be. Crystal Carter: I don't know. Something like that. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Well, anyway, the SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix where you cannot only subscribe to our SEO newsletter, Searchlight, over wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but where you can easily turn a great point in a blog post into a video for social media with a huge library of templates courtesy of Vimeo. I know, I've used it. This, as we're taking a look at repurposing your content for search. Have you ever done a webinar, perhaps a podcast, and now you're interested in making that content work for Google Search success? Then do we have the episode for you? Sorry, too salesy. Then you're in the right place. Still too salesy. Then today, we're talking about repurposing video and audio content that you love so much and making it work for the SERP. To use transcription or not to use transcription, this is the question when we're repurposing video and audio assets for search. Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of user intent, how not to waste your time repurposing the wrong assets. Friends, Romans, lend me your ears and you shall hear how AI can help you repurpose video and audio content for search. Also, LinkedIn's own Purna Virji stops by to share tips on how to repurpose content at scale. And we'll talk the flip side as we get into repurposing your audio and video content into Google SERP features. And of course, we have the snappiest of SEO news for you and who you should be following for more SEO awesomeness on social. So if repurposing be the music of Google rankings, repurpose on as episode number 48 of the SERP's Up podcast is a bounty that is boundless as the sea. That's all the Shakespeare I know. In fact, that's more than the Shakespeare I know. I had to Google half of that. Crystal Carter: Alas, poor Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: Alas, I do not like Shakespeare. Crystal Carter: You do not like Shakespeare? Mordy Oberstein: No, which is I don't know why I went all Shakespearean. It started off with to use a transcript or not to use a transcript, that is the question when repurposing content for search. Oh, my God, I guess I got to go Shakespeare with this, so I did. Crystal Carter: Maybe so. I feel like there's a way. Shakespeare wasn't that into video particularly. Mordy Oberstein: No. He was more a podcast person. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I reckon. He was more into- Mordy Oberstein: Relax. Crystal Carter: ... waxing more poetical and things like that, but I think that yeah, maybe he would've had a YouTube channel or something if Bill was around today. Mordy Oberstein: He would have had a YouTube channel. He would've had a thumbnail of him doing crazy poses. Crystal Carter: Yeah. He'd be like, like and subscribe to The Bard, dropping bars here on the YouTube channel. Mordy Oberstein: So basically, Shakespeare would be your typical less unreputable YouTuber. Crystal Carter: He'd probably be making YouTube Short or TikToks or something. Mordy Oberstein: They would not too short. It'd be very long. It'd be- Crystal Carter: Absolute. Mordy Oberstein: ... very long,- Crystal Carter: Very long soliloquies- Mordy Oberstein: ... very long. Crystal Carter: ... and very dramatic things for some of the tragedy. I've seen a lot of Shakespeare and some of the tragedies, they're brutal at the end and everyone. Mordy Oberstein: Know what will be a tragedy? If you had a great audio and video content and you didn't repurpose it for search because repurposing content is incredibly powerful. It helps build cadence. I love talking about cadence. I had a whole tweet the other day from a recording, not the other day, from re-releasing all about how cadence is your ally as a brand marketer. It helps you to reach new audiences in new ways and new channels and it's super efficient because you're maximizing the amount of effort you put into the content creation process. However, I tend to think that we generally think of repurposing, at least I do, about taking written content that's really made for search and turning it into a podcast or a video or a short. But today, we're doing the opposite. We're talking about the reverse of taking your not written content and then turning it into written content that you can repurpose for search. Crazy, crazy right there. I think it's a whole different mindset, by the way, and I think it's what makes it difficult. When you're to say creating an infographic for social, that's a very specific kind of mindset. You want something catchy. You want something that's going to grab on. It's going to get retweets. It's going to get liked. It's whatever it is. It's a very in the moment kind of way of thinking. But search is very, very, very different. I think the biggest thing here is mindset. Mindset matters most. I'm a big believer in that. I think here in particular, I think there's a lot to swap around in terms of mindset when you're repurposing audio video content for search versus taking, let's say, a blog post and repurposing it as audio video content for other media channels. I think that means, for example, just to be really specific about it, I think you want to leave aside the hook to a certain degree and bring out quality insights and targeting, which is to say it's different than say social media where the hook is super important. I think in terms of mindset, you want to figure out how to work faster because the barrier to entry is harder. You're creating written content for search. It's very time-consuming. I think you want to fit into a larger strategy that has lasting power because hot trends on social and capturing that for a quick win so you can get a thousand more followers for you and your company, in two weeks, that's just not search and it's a completely different mindset. So talking about repurposing content, audio, video content for search, I feel like start with the mindset. Crystal Carter: Yeah. I think that essentially, when you're thinking about taking video and adding it into the content that you expect to rank on search, then you should be taking the same SEO approach that you would to everything. So thinking about keyword research, thinking about the keywords in the content. On YouTube, for instance, you can search for the words wI've done it before where I was looking up something and I was looking for somethingithin the YouTube transcript. They auto-generate transcripts. You can search for the words within the transcript. and I found a video of you, Mordy Oberstein,- Mordy Oberstein: Do you really? Crystal Carter: ... talking about something else. The topic of the webinar wasn't anything to do with that. The topic of the thing that you were on wasn't anything to do with that, but you had mentioned this specific element within that transcript and so they're able to pull those things out. So when you're creating content, it's very important to think about what you're saying in the video if you're planning, as part of the content life cycle, to include that into other parts of your web page. The other thing that's really important to think about is that video content can be repurposed on multiple pages that you expect to rank for search. There may very well be a few different places where you can put this on your website and you should think about that again when you're in the mindset that the point of entry is high. It takes a long time to think about a script and get your lighting right and get everybody in the right place and make sure the sound is all good and all of that sort of stuff. It takes time to invest in video, so you want to make sure that you're able to get maximum impact out of that content, so something that is fairly evergreen, maybe something that doesn't need to be changed every two weeks. Like you were saying, you don't want something that like, oh, it's a trend to this week and then nobody cares next week because it's not that useful. Mordy Oberstein: SEO is long-term stable growth for the long run. Crystal Carter: Exactly. Exactly. So think about that when you're thinking about the kinds of things that would make good video and would make good video for people who are searching. I think also it's important to think about how the content that you have that you expect to help other content rank will help that content to rank. We generally see that the click-through rate for videos is much higher, sometimes three times higher than the content that doesn't have videos on the SERP because you've got a few different options to show that video on the SERP. So make the most of it. Make sure that the video lines up with the content that's written with any images that you have with all of those things, that it's not just some random video that's nothing to do with the page because Google can tell and that's important. Mordy Oberstein: Well, that's a good point because we're talking about you're setting up the video and you're thinking about the transcript, which is what you're going to be using for ranking and getting the right keywords in there. But let me bring up a question to you. Does it always make sense to transcript? Because sometimes, I find that the transcript can be very broad in a way. I'm not describing it the best way possible, but it's conversational, so getting those meaty points taken out of the transcript and really focusing on them might work better. Forget for search for your readers, but it also might work better for search. Now you can add in headers. Now you can structure the content a little bit better. I'm not saying that transcripts don't rank, can't rank and whatnot, but I'm wondering your thoughts on, you know what? Maybe that would be a good use case for AI. Maybe you take the transcript and say, "Hey, AI. Take this transcript and turn this into something that's more structured." Crystal Carter: Right. I think I've done similar exercises and you can tell the AI, I don't want this rewritten. Don't give me your hallucinations. I don't want that. I literally want you to tidy this up. Mordy Oberstein: Add headers to it. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Take the ums out. Take all the likes out, like like, like, like and that sort of thing. So that's really useful. I think in terms of the content that supports the videos, so one thing that's really interesting about videos in search is that Google has recently, they keep adding more and more features on Google Search Console to help you manage your video pages. They've more clearly defined what a video page is. They've added in more documentation about what are the best requirements for having your videos show on the SERP, and particularly if you're using YouTube, which evidence has shown that YouTube is the service of choice. So definitely have a look at that. I'm talking about a lot of this at my MozCon presentation in August. Mordy Oberstein: A plug. Crystal Carter: So I'll get into this in a bit more detail, but studies have shown anecdotally in any way, we're seeing a lot of evidence that YouTube is a preferred platform. But the other thing that's great about YouTube is that YouTube has a lot of the defaults that match up with a lot of the requirements that Google has. YouTube will automatically generate a transcript. If you improve that transcript on YouTube, that is valuable. Mordy Oberstein: That's also true. Crystal Carter: That is useful. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great point. Crystal Carter: Because YouTube, they doqn't always get it right. Mordy Oberstein: They don't always get it right. It's a little bit weird sometimes. Crystal Carter: Right, and they don't always put the periods, the full stops, whatever you want to call them. They don't always put those- Are Mordy Oberstein: That's what I mean. Crystal Carter: ... in the right place. Mordy Oberstein: You're talking about AI. I'm talking about AI and AI and AI. We talked about this with Ross Hudgens on our webinar that we did over the Wix SEO Learning Hub. When you give AI confines and you let it work in a closed environment, it is way better. If you already have some sort of content, which you generally have with video or a podcast you have, the transcript, you have something you're working with, it's an optimal case to use AI to refine it, which I'm not saying you don't need to go back and refine it yourself a little bit more, but you could take a lot of that hard work out. The repurposing video audio for search is a prime case where I think AI does work. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it does. It does. It works really well. And the thing is YouTube's using AI to understand it. YouTube's using AI to generate the transcript in the first place. So essentially, you're adding into more refinements there. So with regards to what's on the page, generally speaking, there can be good practice into adding a transcript. Again, it will depend on the quality of the transcript. Some videos are made specifically to be part of a page and so they essentially read and are written like a transcript. If you have a more conversational situation like a podcast or webinar or something or it's something to that effect, some editing, it can be really, really valuable. I think that it depends on the medium and on what users are expecting. I have very much, particularly when I've been looking for a quote, been extremely grateful when people have put the entire transcript of a webinar or an activity on a website because you can get the quote much more clearly when it's on the page. If you try to extract the transcript from YouTube, it's a little bit annoying. Then I use the AI to take out all the timestamps. So yeah, I think it depends on what the value is of the transcript and you'll know whether or not you were on topic or whether you were on a tangent and we're talking about Shakespeare when you were supposed to be talking about videos. Mordy Oberstein: We would never do that. We would never do that. Crystal Carter: Laser-focused. Mordy Oberstein: All the time. So we covered transcripts. We covered AI. I want to cover one more point if we could, and that's how to know if you're not wasting your time. How do you decide when you should repurpose video or audio content for the main search results? Because I'll give you a case. Did you know, Crystal, that Beatle videos has a global search volume of 1,100 searches every month according to Semrush? Wow. Did you know you should not repurpose your video content for written content there for the SERP because all of the results Google is showing is from YouTube? I could repeat this with the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan. Crystal Carter: Yeah. See? Mordy Oberstein: Beyonce. Crystal Carter: When you said Beatles, I wasn't sure which Beatles you were talking about. I was like, are we talking about stag beetles- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, my God. Crystal Carter: ... because I like stag beetles. Stag beetles are cool. Mordy Oberstein: Let me quickly run this through Semrush again. Crystal Carter: B-E-E-T. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Beyonce videos has a monthly search volume of 4,400 every month, and I guarantee you if I Google it, it will all be YouTube videos. Do not waste your time. What I'm trying to say is you need to go and look and see what the intent on the surface because maybe it doesn't support written content. Crystal Carter: So here's the thing. When you're thinking about this, I tend to go the other way. I tend to look at what content you have on your site. Let's say you have written content on your site and you have some videos on your YouTube channel. You can do this on Semrush. I'm sure you can do this on other tools as well. Look at your site and look at which pages are ranking and which pages could be ranking for videos, which pages- Mordy Oberstein: You're spoiling it. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: You're spoiling it. Crystal Carter: What am I spoiling? Mordy Oberstein: This. This is our dynamic segment for later. Later, we're going to be going going Google where we talk about looking at what's ranking on the SERP for video and audio content. Crystal Carter: In the tool, you can do this. In the tool, you can do this. You can see what things are ranking for which SERP features. There's a few different tools that will tell you which SERP features are available and you can look on mass at your tools rather than just looking at a single page, which we will discuss in more detail. But you can look at which keywords your page is ranking for and you can look at and see where there are video opportunities. Doing it that way is really, really effective and can help make sure that you're not wasting your time and that you're complimenting content that is ranking well as well. Mordy Oberstein: It could be anything. It could be like, okay, I'm going to spend time optimizing this transcript and on the SERP, all that's there are very short, quick answers. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: You have to just make sure you're lining up with the intent when you're repurposing content for the SERP. Crystal Carter: Of course. Sometimes, it's a question of having a little bit of a mix and match. I'm going to caveat and say this isn't necessarily editorially my favorite publication, but one of the things that the Daily Mail does is they do a TLDR. They'll have an article about, oh, Blue Ivy performed with Beyonce at the London Show, and yes she did. Blue Ivy did not come out at the Cardiff show and I was a little bit upset because I was at the Cardiff show and I was not at the London show, and I was like, whatever. Okay, fine. Mordy Oberstein: Wow. Crystal Carter: Anyway, so let's say there's this article about that. They will have the headline and they will also have a couple of TLDR points. So they'll say like, "Blue Ivy showed up for this song. Blue Ivy did this. Blue Ivy did that." They have a couple of lines and then they'll get into the long, long, long, long, long of the whole article. For instance, if you're seeing something like that and let's say maybe at this time, this moment in time, maybe you don't have time to do a full refit of your transcript page, but maybe you have time to do at the top a couple of quick summarizing points of this topic covers this, this, this and this. That's something that can help you to satisfy some of that quick TLDR intent and also allows you to have the people who want to get in and get the quote or who just want to jump to the part that they're interested in, which are those people, and I'm one of those people, then it allows you to satisfy both intents for instance. Mordy Oberstein: So if you're doing all these different intents and all these different pieces of content and all this repurposing to try to take your audio and your video content and make it ready for rankings among the traditional blue links, then you need to do it at scale, which means we need ideas about how to do this at scale, which is why LinkedIn's own principal content solutions evangelist, Purna Virji, is here to discuss how you can repurpose content at scale. By the way, she got a new book. I'll link in the show notes. We're plugging her book. Crystal Carter: Get the book. Mordy Oberstein: Get the book. Here's Purna. Purna Virji: Hi, Mordy and Crystal. I'm here to share three tips in just about three minutes on how you can repurpose your content at scale. To do this, we're going to take inspiration from Hollywood. Think of a movie like Star Wars. That one creative has been turned from movies into toys, video games, lunch boxes, clothes, you name it. That one idea has been used in a ton of different ways to make billions and billions of dollars overall. May some of that force be with us and it certainly can be with these three blockbuster strategies to repurpose content like a movie mogul. Let's start with tip number one. Now, if we think about biopics and movies based on true stories, they tend to have a really great track record at the box office. We can channel that same idea by building content from news and current affairs to be relevant and timely or suddenly rewrap our content in this news and current affairs newsjacking shell. Let's say, for example, you're a financial planning company and some existing content that you have provides advice on how people can reduce the inheritance bill. How can you reuse it in a way that feels current and fresh and still interesting? That's why you turn to the news. For example, a company called Birkett Long had seen this news story talking about how the actor Daniel Craig, aka James Bond, 007, will not be gifting his estate. So they created a post all about that and then they segued very, very cleverly into sharing their practical advice into how people can reduce their inheritance bill. So clever, existing content rewrap to feel fresh and current and get people to want to read it. Tip number two, remakes of older movies or foreign movies are big business. What we can learn from that is why create from scratch when you can curate from what's worked elsewhere? One of my favorite places to curate from, your data, especially data that can help you stand out during your customer's research process. Think about things like success or effectiveness rates or you can share how customers saw a big improvement. Any values or benefits for choosing you that can be found by data can be turned into really high-value content that already exists. I swear if Mulder and Scully from X-Files were content marketers, they'd agree that the content is out there. You just need to join forces with other teams to find it. Okay, tip number three, think about spin-offs, re-releases, movies made from TV shows, they all show us the value of reusing our own heads in new ways. But now when I'm saying reuse your existing content, I'm not saying just take the existing content and slap it everywhere. No, because that's not really exciting, is it? Something that many people miss, but is one of my favorite tips to do is to go and look at high-value or high-investment pieces, whether it's a research report or a white paper or some ultimate guide. Generally, there's a lot of really good richness in there and its content that can appeal to different types of audiences. So what I advise people to do is pull out different excerpts from it and create shorter pieces that are very highly targeted to certain demographics. Let's say if you are a B2B company and you are trying to appeal to maybe an HR or a manager would be the ultimate decision maker, but the employees of the company would be the end users. You'd want to appeal to both so that way, you can get employees asking and recommending your brand, but you also then appeal to managers and HR to assign the decision. This way, you can speak much more relevantly to each audience and it's not starting from scratch. You can do this by just repurposing what works. So remember, you can create dozens and dozens and dozens of assets with minimal work when you can use the same core IP in a variety of different ways. So anti-hustle culture, reuse, and recycle. Let's even be sustainable with our content. Thank you. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Purna. Love all the movie references. This is great. Crystal Carter: Yeah, movies, TV. We had Star Wars. I'm guessing. Where it’s giving me like sci-fi fan vibes because she mentioned Star Wars and the X-Files. Mordy Oberstein: I love sci-fi. I love sci-fi. You know what I also love? Repurposing content the right way. Crystal Carter: Yes, absolutely. Mordy Oberstein: It's so many good points. When I'm thinking about repurposing content, I'll tell you the way that I approach it is, what can I spin off really quickly that I can replicate over and over and over again without a lot of resources? Crystal Carter: Also, I think it's a question of what can add value to users in a new way? She talked about Star Wars for instance. One of the reasons why they rebooted it again was that- Mordy Oberstein: Make money, was to make lots of money. Crystal Carter: Well, there's that, but I think also, was to appeal to a new audience. We see this with a few different things where they'll take something that's a little bit retro and they'll reboot it with maybe a younger team or something. So then you have the people who remember it from the nostalgia, that audience, and then you have the people who are seeing it afresh and they're relating to the newer people who are involved with it. I think that this is the thing with your content. We've been talking about video in this particular instance. There might be people who really love a really chunky article that they can sit down with a nice cup of coffee and really get into. There's going to be some people who like video, who like to get video and they're getting most of their notifications via YouTube or via another video streaming platform. So if you're connecting with them in a different way, then that means that you're able to reach them in a way that they find most valuable. The content is going to be really good content, but if you're able to reformat it and repackage it, then yeah, all the better and great, better for user value. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, just make sure that you're not alienating your previous audience when you're creating this content like Star Wars did. I'm salty, very salty about the whole Star Wars thing. We had 20 years, 20 more, 30 years, 35 years, whatever, for Luke Skywalk to come. We're not even going to go there? I will say with repurposing content, one of the things that you want to think about is, hey look, you just got to get going with it sometimes. In order to get going with it, take the path of least resistance and build upon that and then take it from there because it can seem daunting. It can seem overwhelming and it can seem like five jobs all into itself. Get going. Find a quick way to get some momentum on it. See the value in it and that'll help you keep delving into that process even further. Crystal Carter: Yeah, absolutely. Mordy Oberstein: Now, since we're talking about video and audio content, as you probably know, audio and video content does live on the SERP itself. Google has SERP features for both video and audio, which means that you want to get video and content itself to show up on the SERP whenever appropriate. Let's see where video and audio content on the SERP is heading as we take a directional look at where things are trending towards when it comes to audio and video content on the SERP as we are going, going, going Google. And it's going, going Google. It's out of here. As a podcaster, an award-winning podcaster I might add,- Crystal Carter: I've seen the award. Thanks, Mordy for reminding me that you got an award. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Hold on. Crystal Carter: It's obnoxiously gold. Mordy Oberstein: It is so golden and it's so heavy. Crystal Carter: It's like, what's that? There is a guy, speaking of movies, the baddie in Goldfinger. Mordy Oberstein: I never liked those movies. Crystal Carter: No, Goldmember, Goldmember, the Austin Powers. Mordy Oberstein: Ah. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: That, I know. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: If it was Bond, I don't know, but Austin Powers, right up my alley. You may know that I like podcasting. One of the things I pay attention to as a podcaster is what happens on the SERP for podcast. We've all blog post about this on the SEO hub, the Wix SEO hub that I'll share in the show notes about how to optimize your podcast for search. One of the things that Google tends to show is a box or a carousel, however you want to describe it, that lists all of the podcasts related to the queries. If I search for baseball podcasts, I'll get organic results, but it'll generally sit under a giant box of actual podcast listings that represent baseball podcasts. Now, something that I happen to notice is that for more niche areas like SEO, for example, that carousel is often gone, which by the way, means that the organic placement itself, meaning your actual organic result for the podcast are being shown on lists that represent in the podcast are really important now or more important than they were before. They're really important before because that carousel is gone. I'm talking about, say particularly when you're searching for something, SEO podcast, the carousel, as of this recording, has been gone for a while. I was tracking, by the way, sports medicine podcast, not that I'll do a sports medicine podcast, but again, as a podcaster keeping tabs on these things, that's gone. The only time it shows up is when you search for best SEO podcast. Now the carousel is back, or best sports medicine podcast. I have a theory. Crystal Carter: What's your theory? Mordy Oberstein: I have a theory that Google realizes that people are trending towards not going to the SERP for podcast anymore. Crystal Carter: Interesting, interesting. Mordy Oberstein: They're just going to go to Spotify. Crystal Carter: That's very interesting. I think that that's absolutely true for some searches. You're going to get people who go straight to Spotify or maybe go straight to Google or to Google Podcasts or there's the Apple Podcasts as well. I think that it's a prime example of how SERP features are amazing, but it's also important that you rank in the plain blue links when you're doing things because we've seen that the podcast carousel, for instance, will show. I think on marketing podcasts at the moment, in the UK anyway, I'm getting the display, but as you're saying, it's very dynamic and I've seen that SEO podcast one go up and go down and go up and go down and show and not show. I think that if you're not ranking on the blue links at all, then when those features come and go, which they are want to do because Google might be doing a test or Google might be changing around, they might try to change the SERP feature, if you're not ranking on the plain blue links as well, then that's something that can be a challenge. This is one of the reasons why you should think about that for all kinds of content and not just podcasts as well. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, and something to really pay attention to and it's interesting that it's changing. If you look at traffic around, let's say Spotify itself, you see a lot of the direct traffic, the organic traffic, a lot of this is going up and up and up over time. We didn't even see how the market ecosystem's play into what happens on Google. I'm just speculating. I don't really know. Crystal Carter: Well, I think they're also sending a lot of traffic to Spotify. So certainly on mobile, if you look up, I think we mentioned Beyonce or whatever, but let's mention her again, but if you look up one of her songs or one of her albums or something, they might very well give you a link to Spotify that goes direct to that part of Spotify that goes to that page or goes to that song or goes to that playlist or whatever. So they're very happy to send people directly into apps in order to satisfy the user need. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. So that's audio. Let's talk about video because you started getting into this a little bit earlier around what's happening with the video SERP and what matters, what doesn't matter these days for getting your video onto the SERP. By the way, just some personal experience, we've seen it with our webinar videos. If you can get a video onto the SERP, you can drive a tremendous amount of views, traffic, or whatever to describe it to your YouTube channel, which is amazing. Crystal Carter: Right, and I think it's important to remember that those two things should work in conjunction. It's very much the case that if you have a video that is on your website and that you're using as a supplementary or complementary or even the primary aspects of a particular web page or blog, then you should also make sure that you're optimizing that page on YouTube. You can add in some of the chapters, for instance, on your YouTube videos. You can add in links back to your content on your YouTube video. You can add in keywords into your YouTube. You can also add in other things. Depending on how you're configuring your website, you can also use some of the attributes from your YouTube optimizations on your web page. So for instance, on Wix, we have Wix Video and one of the things that Wix Video does is you can embed a video from your website. Wix Video is using YouTube's configuration to generate schema markup for that video. So when you add a video onto Wix using Wix Video, it will automatically generate schema markup for that video and it will also pull out the attributes from the YouTube video. So not only will it pull out the summary and the name, but it will also pull out some of those keywords that you would add into your YouTube optimization. So if you are thinking coherently about your YouTube strategy and your video strategy as you're making your content, as you're optimizing your content, then you can find efficiencies through your optimizations. We've seen that users are very often clicking those links that are in the descriptions. We see that regularly. And also, the other thing that's really important to think about is backlinks. When you add a video onto YouTube, that counts as a backlink and that counts as referral traffic and that counts as Google being able to understand what's going on there. So that helps to distribute your content in a number of ways as well. Mordy Oberstein: And if you're going to have the video on the page, one thing to note as of more recent times is that in order for your page to have the video thumbnail show up, it has to be the video is the main content on the page. Crystal Carter: Oh, yeah. Mordy Oberstein: It's something to consider because if you do have that kind of video and you can show it where it's appropriate to show it towards the top of the SERP for that particular page, then do it because results that are visual are far more clickable than results that are just unto text. Crystal Carter: Yeah, absolutely. Put the video at the top. Put it at the top. Put it at the top. There's nothing worse than having a video on your page and it says at the bottom like, "Oh, this isn't the main video." When you go onto Google Search Console that you can look in your video pages report and you can see whether or not this thinks this is the main content of the page, and if it is the main content of the page, put it at the top so that Google knows that it's the main content of the page. You shouldn't be any ambiguity about that. Mordy Oberstein: Since we're talking that directionally about Google, the fact that Google's adding more video information into Search Console kind of tells you everything that you really need to know about where the web is at. Crystal Carter: Right. Precisely. Users are updating video all the time and users really enjoy video. We see the number of videos that people are watching only increases every year. The thing that's really strange is that even though that people are watching more and more videos, marketers are saying they should make more and more videos. If you ask users do they want more videos from marketers, they say yes. So I'm like, when will it end? How many videos do you need, people? No. Mordy Oberstein: Hey, I could literally waste my life away on YouTube. I am your target market. Crystal Carter: Right. I've definitely done that of an evening. I watched that video. It was seven ways to tie a scarf, which is years old, but that was peak what am I doing with my life. Because I knew all of the different ways. There's only so many ways to tie a scarf. Mordy Oberstein: I literally enjoy sports people talking about the same point, different sports hosts talking about the same point over and over and over again on a daily basis. Crystal Carter: I really like watching people get their hair done on YouTube. I like the before and after. I like that when somebody comes in and we're like, oh look, now they've got a different hairstyle. Well, it's very nice. Mordy Oberstein: I like yelling and screaming. You like- Crystal Carter: Potatoes, potatoes. Anyway. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah. Hey, look, by the way, I sent a bunch of tweets about baseball, which you never even saw. You should check out. It's old Slack. They're hilarious. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: They're talking about videos. Anyway, speaking of videos, we have a great Follow of the Week for you who does a lot of videos, but we got some news for you first. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: What's the news? Crystal Carter: I don't know. What is it? Mordy Oberstein: I don't know yet because I haven't gotten to yet, but I do know one thing. It's snappy. Here's this week's Snappy News. Snappy News, Snappy News, Snappy News. First things first, the SEO tools that track changes in the levels of rank fluctuations have all been red-hot. Google is really mixing up rank these days. To that, Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable writes that, "Coming to a theater near you, you could expect an official Google algorithm update this summer." Prepare for impact, red alert and a bunch of other urgency-related catchphrases. Also, per Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable again, Google Merchant Center: How To Build Trust With Your Customers. A lot of really, really, really interesting takeaways from this one. This is how Google's looking at authority related to products, looking at trust related to products. One of the things they wrote is "include an about us page on your website to show your authenticity and tell customers your unique story." It's a very underrated tactic. You really should focus on the about page. It's one of the only pages where you can explicitly tell Google who you are, what you do in very direct terms. Also tell your users at the same time, but from an SEO point of view, really, really helpful. Also, Google wrote, "Help potential customers understand how to use your products or how other customers have used them. Show reviews and testimonials about your products and business." I've longed held that one of the things that can help a landing page really do better on search is showing informational content, how to use the product, when to use the product, all of that FAQ-ish kind of stuff. Usually on landing pages, we're very conversion-minded, but Google's basically telling you here, if you have a little bit of an informational intent embedded in there, it could be really helpful and I think it very much resonates with users at the same time, especially if they're a little more skeptical. Last one for you from Matt Southern over at Search Engine Journal, Google's On Domain Name Selection: Branding Over Keywords. It's always good to get a refresh on this sort of points and to spell some SEO miss. This comes from Google's Search Off the Record podcast. The question, overarching question was, what do I do? Do I use a keyword to pick my domain name or do I choose a more brand-focused domain name? Gary from Google wrote for example, or rather he said, he didn't write, it's a podcast, Gary over Google said that basically, there's a very little impact from a ranking point of view using the keyword in the URL, but there could be a very big impact from a conversion point of view. I think the example that he gave was, let's say you are selling passport pictures and the domain name is something that relates to passport pictures like best passport picture place versus something very generic like get pictures. You're going to probably choose as a user the domain that is more specifically focused on what you're actually looking for. So keyword, not a big impact on rankings, but actually having the brand focus on what you do in very specific way, meaning don't worry about the keyword ranking stuff so much, more on the branding side can have a big conversion impact. John pointed out, and I always like John's perspective on these things, John Mueller said, "You should think long term because changing your domain name is always a hassle and you want to keep it for a long time if you can." What he's referring to is you want to think about how your business is going to expand. For example, I mentioned back in the day, the name of my website was vcrs.com when no one uses a VCR anymore. If the domain was more reflective on the wider media as opposed to the specific device, then I might be able to keep the same domain name as technology changes as my product or service offering expands. So really good points, really foundational points. Always good to get a refresher. Thank you, John. Thank you, Gary. Thank you Martin from Google for the podcast episode. We'll link to all these articles in the show notes and that is this week's Snappy News. As promised as always, so snappy. Crystal Carter: So snappy. Mordy Oberstein: Snappylicious, really. If it is a soft drink, it will be Snapple. Crystal Carter: I literally was just thinking of that and particularly I was thinking of the little poems that they put on their caps of the Snapple. That is proper microcopy. I don't know who thought of that, but the person who did- Mordy Oberstein: The branding right there. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's iconic. It's iconic. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Now, you know what else is iconic? Love my segues today. Sam Oh. If you're looking for videos about SEO, then you should definitely check out Sam Oh and the videos he's done for, Ahrefs. I'll call them timeless classics on SEO YouTube. Crystal Carter: We were very fortunate to have Sam Oh join us at a Wix SEO event at BrightonSEO. Mordy Oberstein: Well, I don't want to mess this up. This is our Follow of the Week, people. Sam Oh is our Follow of the Week. I got this, unprofessional award-winning podcast host. Crystal Carter: He is award-winning. You need to put that on your YouTube bio. Okay, so our Follow of the Week is Sam Oh. We were very fortunate to have him at a Wix SEO event during BrightonSEO recently. He walked in and he went, "Hi, I'm Sam Oh," and I was like, "Sam, everyone here knows who you are. We all know who you are." He's had billions and billions of views on YouTube and the guy is such a nice guy. He is so methodic and so clear in the way that he creates his videos and the content that he creates and the way that he approaches SEO and it's really very much a resource. It's the kind of content that is just exceptional. He's been doing it for a few years and he's a great asset to the SEO community, an absolute pillar. So absolutely follow Sam Oh, not only because his content's great, but he's a nice guy. Mordy Oberstein: And just to add value of it, is that on YouTube, I don't know how to put this gently, sometimes the SEO content is not of the highest quality and it's hard to know who to listen to. Sam is somebody you should listen to, so do follow Sam on Twitter. It's @samS-G-O-H, so S-A-M-S-G-O-H. We'll link to his Twitter profile in the show notes. Now, if we were taking our own advice, we would repurpose our outro every single week. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: Sometimes it does pay to do custom stuff, so we're going to do a custom outro. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: We're not going to repurpose from week to week. Crystal Carter: All right. Mordy Oberstein: We value the podcast. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Crystal Carter: Is it you're… Mordy Oberstein: You get what I'm saying? I'm saying we're talking about repurposing and saving time, but we're not repurposing something that many, many podcasts often repurpose, which is the intro in the outros. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Oh, good. Okay. So are we saying goodbye now? Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah, sorry. This is my way of saying goodbye. Crystal Carter: Okay. Bye, everybody. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much for joining us at SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with a new episode as we dive into, does social media matter for SEO? Look for wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check all the great content and webinars at the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Purna Virji Sam Oh Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter ChatGPT and AI Writers in SEO Content High-Impact Content Marketing News: Google: Expect A Confirmed Google Algorithm Update This Summer Google Merchant Center: How To Build Trust With Your Customers Google’s On Domain Name Selection: Branding Over Keywords Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Purna Virji Sam Oh Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter ChatGPT and AI Writers in SEO Content High-Impact Content Marketing News: Google: Expect A Confirmed Google Algorithm Update This Summer Google Merchant Center: How To Build Trust With Your Customers Google’s On Domain Name Selection: Branding Over Keywords Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha. Mahalo for joining the SERP's Up podcast. We're pushing out some groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the head of SEO branding here at Wix, and I'm joined by the amazing, the fabulous, the un-impeccable, the uncomparable, the one, the only head of SEO communications here at Wix, Crystal J. Carter. Crystal Carter: Oh, snap. Mordy Oberstein: I don't think I've ever used your middle initial before. Crystal Carter: Oh, yeah, that's what I was saying. That's why I was like, oh no, it's gotten real because like we're pulling out. We're pulling out. It's like when your mom calls you and she uses your full name and you're like, oh, snap. Mordy Oberstein: Not good. Things are bad. Crystal Carter: Things are happening now. Mordy Oberstein: When that happens, things are definitely bad. Crystal Carter: I did not clean my room and I'm about to hear all about it, that kind of thing. Oh, no. Mordy Oberstein: But I didn't realize this until right now, by the way, which is just terrible. We have the same middle initial. Crystal Carter: Oh. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: I doubt it's the same name. I don't want to discuss my middle name, but I doubt it's the same. Mordy Oberstein: It's not Jacob? Crystal Carter: Jacob is a good name. I like that as a name because you can short it to Jake. You can shorten it to Jake. Mordy Oberstein: Jake, yeah. Crystal Carter: Jake's a good name. Mordy Oberstein: Jake The Snake. Crystal Carter: What's it called? Was it like Big Man Jake or something? Was that a movie or something? Mordy Oberstein: It might be. Crystal Carter: I don't know. Something like that. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Well, anyway, the SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix where you cannot only subscribe to our SEO newsletter, Searchlight, over wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but where you can easily turn a great point in a blog post into a video for social media with a huge library of templates courtesy of Vimeo. I know, I've used it. This, as we're taking a look at repurposing your content for search. Have you ever done a webinar, perhaps a podcast, and now you're interested in making that content work for Google Search success? Then do we have the episode for you? Sorry, too salesy. Then you're in the right place. Still too salesy. Then today, we're talking about repurposing video and audio content that you love so much and making it work for the SERP. To use transcription or not to use transcription, this is the question when we're repurposing video and audio assets for search. Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of user intent, how not to waste your time repurposing the wrong assets. Friends, Romans, lend me your ears and you shall hear how AI can help you repurpose video and audio content for search. Also, LinkedIn's own Purna Virji stops by to share tips on how to repurpose content at scale. And we'll talk the flip side as we get into repurposing your audio and video content into Google SERP features. And of course, we have the snappiest of SEO news for you and who you should be following for more SEO awesomeness on social. So if repurposing be the music of Google rankings, repurpose on as episode number 48 of the SERP's Up podcast is a bounty that is boundless as the sea. That's all the Shakespeare I know. In fact, that's more than the Shakespeare I know. I had to Google half of that. Crystal Carter: Alas, poor Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: Alas, I do not like Shakespeare. Crystal Carter: You do not like Shakespeare? Mordy Oberstein: No, which is I don't know why I went all Shakespearean. It started off with to use a transcript or not to use a transcript, that is the question when repurposing content for search. Oh, my God, I guess I got to go Shakespeare with this, so I did. Crystal Carter: Maybe so. I feel like there's a way. Shakespeare wasn't that into video particularly. Mordy Oberstein: No. He was more a podcast person. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I reckon. He was more into- Mordy Oberstein: Relax. Crystal Carter: ... waxing more poetical and things like that, but I think that yeah, maybe he would've had a YouTube channel or something if Bill was around today. Mordy Oberstein: He would have had a YouTube channel. He would've had a thumbnail of him doing crazy poses. Crystal Carter: Yeah. He'd be like, like and subscribe to The Bard, dropping bars here on the YouTube channel. Mordy Oberstein: So basically, Shakespeare would be your typical less unreputable YouTuber. Crystal Carter: He'd probably be making YouTube Short or TikToks or something. Mordy Oberstein: They would not too short. It'd be very long. It'd be- Crystal Carter: Absolute. Mordy Oberstein: ... very long,- Crystal Carter: Very long soliloquies- Mordy Oberstein: ... very long. Crystal Carter: ... and very dramatic things for some of the tragedy. I've seen a lot of Shakespeare and some of the tragedies, they're brutal at the end and everyone. Mordy Oberstein: Know what will be a tragedy? If you had a great audio and video content and you didn't repurpose it for search because repurposing content is incredibly powerful. It helps build cadence. I love talking about cadence. I had a whole tweet the other day from a recording, not the other day, from re-releasing all about how cadence is your ally as a brand marketer. It helps you to reach new audiences in new ways and new channels and it's super efficient because you're maximizing the amount of effort you put into the content creation process. However, I tend to think that we generally think of repurposing, at least I do, about taking written content that's really made for search and turning it into a podcast or a video or a short. But today, we're doing the opposite. We're talking about the reverse of taking your not written content and then turning it into written content that you can repurpose for search. Crazy, crazy right there. I think it's a whole different mindset, by the way, and I think it's what makes it difficult. When you're to say creating an infographic for social, that's a very specific kind of mindset. You want something catchy. You want something that's going to grab on. It's going to get retweets. It's going to get liked. It's whatever it is. It's a very in the moment kind of way of thinking. But search is very, very, very different. I think the biggest thing here is mindset. Mindset matters most. I'm a big believer in that. I think here in particular, I think there's a lot to swap around in terms of mindset when you're repurposing audio video content for search versus taking, let's say, a blog post and repurposing it as audio video content for other media channels. I think that means, for example, just to be really specific about it, I think you want to leave aside the hook to a certain degree and bring out quality insights and targeting, which is to say it's different than say social media where the hook is super important. I think in terms of mindset, you want to figure out how to work faster because the barrier to entry is harder. You're creating written content for search. It's very time-consuming. I think you want to fit into a larger strategy that has lasting power because hot trends on social and capturing that for a quick win so you can get a thousand more followers for you and your company, in two weeks, that's just not search and it's a completely different mindset. So talking about repurposing content, audio, video content for search, I feel like start with the mindset. Crystal Carter: Yeah. I think that essentially, when you're thinking about taking video and adding it into the content that you expect to rank on search, then you should be taking the same SEO approach that you would to everything. So thinking about keyword research, thinking about the keywords in the content. On YouTube, for instance, you can search for the words wI've done it before where I was looking up something and I was looking for somethingithin the YouTube transcript. They auto-generate transcripts. You can search for the words within the transcript. and I found a video of you, Mordy Oberstein,- Mordy Oberstein: Do you really? Crystal Carter: ... talking about something else. The topic of the webinar wasn't anything to do with that. The topic of the thing that you were on wasn't anything to do with that, but you had mentioned this specific element within that transcript and so they're able to pull those things out. So when you're creating content, it's very important to think about what you're saying in the video if you're planning, as part of the content life cycle, to include that into other parts of your web page. The other thing that's really important to think about is that video content can be repurposed on multiple pages that you expect to rank for search. There may very well be a few different places where you can put this on your website and you should think about that again when you're in the mindset that the point of entry is high. It takes a long time to think about a script and get your lighting right and get everybody in the right place and make sure the sound is all good and all of that sort of stuff. It takes time to invest in video, so you want to make sure that you're able to get maximum impact out of that content, so something that is fairly evergreen, maybe something that doesn't need to be changed every two weeks. Like you were saying, you don't want something that like, oh, it's a trend to this week and then nobody cares next week because it's not that useful. Mordy Oberstein: SEO is long-term stable growth for the long run. Crystal Carter: Exactly. Exactly. So think about that when you're thinking about the kinds of things that would make good video and would make good video for people who are searching. I think also it's important to think about how the content that you have that you expect to help other content rank will help that content to rank. We generally see that the click-through rate for videos is much higher, sometimes three times higher than the content that doesn't have videos on the SERP because you've got a few different options to show that video on the SERP. So make the most of it. Make sure that the video lines up with the content that's written with any images that you have with all of those things, that it's not just some random video that's nothing to do with the page because Google can tell and that's important. Mordy Oberstein: Well, that's a good point because we're talking about you're setting up the video and you're thinking about the transcript, which is what you're going to be using for ranking and getting the right keywords in there. But let me bring up a question to you. Does it always make sense to transcript? Because sometimes, I find that the transcript can be very broad in a way. I'm not describing it the best way possible, but it's conversational, so getting those meaty points taken out of the transcript and really focusing on them might work better. Forget for search for your readers, but it also might work better for search. Now you can add in headers. Now you can structure the content a little bit better. I'm not saying that transcripts don't rank, can't rank and whatnot, but I'm wondering your thoughts on, you know what? Maybe that would be a good use case for AI. Maybe you take the transcript and say, "Hey, AI. Take this transcript and turn this into something that's more structured." Crystal Carter: Right. I think I've done similar exercises and you can tell the AI, I don't want this rewritten. Don't give me your hallucinations. I don't want that. I literally want you to tidy this up. Mordy Oberstein: Add headers to it. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Take the ums out. Take all the likes out, like like, like, like and that sort of thing. So that's really useful. I think in terms of the content that supports the videos, so one thing that's really interesting about videos in search is that Google has recently, they keep adding more and more features on Google Search Console to help you manage your video pages. They've more clearly defined what a video page is. They've added in more documentation about what are the best requirements for having your videos show on the SERP, and particularly if you're using YouTube, which evidence has shown that YouTube is the service of choice. So definitely have a look at that. I'm talking about a lot of this at my MozCon presentation in August. Mordy Oberstein: A plug. Crystal Carter: So I'll get into this in a bit more detail, but studies have shown anecdotally in any way, we're seeing a lot of evidence that YouTube is a preferred platform. But the other thing that's great about YouTube is that YouTube has a lot of the defaults that match up with a lot of the requirements that Google has. YouTube will automatically generate a transcript. If you improve that transcript on YouTube, that is valuable. Mordy Oberstein: That's also true. Crystal Carter: That is useful. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great point. Crystal Carter: Because YouTube, they doqn't always get it right. Mordy Oberstein: They don't always get it right. It's a little bit weird sometimes. Crystal Carter: Right, and they don't always put the periods, the full stops, whatever you want to call them. They don't always put those- Are Mordy Oberstein: That's what I mean. Crystal Carter: ... in the right place. Mordy Oberstein: You're talking about AI. I'm talking about AI and AI and AI. We talked about this with Ross Hudgens on our webinar that we did over the Wix SEO Learning Hub. When you give AI confines and you let it work in a closed environment, it is way better. If you already have some sort of content, which you generally have with video or a podcast you have, the transcript, you have something you're working with, it's an optimal case to use AI to refine it, which I'm not saying you don't need to go back and refine it yourself a little bit more, but you could take a lot of that hard work out. The repurposing video audio for search is a prime case where I think AI does work. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it does. It does. It works really well. And the thing is YouTube's using AI to understand it. YouTube's using AI to generate the transcript in the first place. So essentially, you're adding into more refinements there. So with regards to what's on the page, generally speaking, there can be good practice into adding a transcript. Again, it will depend on the quality of the transcript. Some videos are made specifically to be part of a page and so they essentially read and are written like a transcript. If you have a more conversational situation like a podcast or webinar or something or it's something to that effect, some editing, it can be really, really valuable. I think that it depends on the medium and on what users are expecting. I have very much, particularly when I've been looking for a quote, been extremely grateful when people have put the entire transcript of a webinar or an activity on a website because you can get the quote much more clearly when it's on the page. If you try to extract the transcript from YouTube, it's a little bit annoying. Then I use the AI to take out all the timestamps. So yeah, I think it depends on what the value is of the transcript and you'll know whether or not you were on topic or whether you were on a tangent and we're talking about Shakespeare when you were supposed to be talking about videos. Mordy Oberstein: We would never do that. We would never do that. Crystal Carter: Laser-focused. Mordy Oberstein: All the time. So we covered transcripts. We covered AI. I want to cover one more point if we could, and that's how to know if you're not wasting your time. How do you decide when you should repurpose video or audio content for the main search results? Because I'll give you a case. Did you know, Crystal, that Beatle videos has a global search volume of 1,100 searches every month according to Semrush? Wow. Did you know you should not repurpose your video content for written content there for the SERP because all of the results Google is showing is from YouTube? I could repeat this with the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan. Crystal Carter: Yeah. See? Mordy Oberstein: Beyonce. Crystal Carter: When you said Beatles, I wasn't sure which Beatles you were talking about. I was like, are we talking about stag beetles- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, my God. Crystal Carter: ... because I like stag beetles. Stag beetles are cool. Mordy Oberstein: Let me quickly run this through Semrush again. Crystal Carter: B-E-E-T. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Beyonce videos has a monthly search volume of 4,400 every month, and I guarantee you if I Google it, it will all be YouTube videos. Do not waste your time. What I'm trying to say is you need to go and look and see what the intent on the surface because maybe it doesn't support written content. Crystal Carter: So here's the thing. When you're thinking about this, I tend to go the other way. I tend to look at what content you have on your site. Let's say you have written content on your site and you have some videos on your YouTube channel. You can do this on Semrush. I'm sure you can do this on other tools as well. Look at your site and look at which pages are ranking and which pages could be ranking for videos, which pages- Mordy Oberstein: You're spoiling it. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: You're spoiling it. Crystal Carter: What am I spoiling? Mordy Oberstein: This. This is our dynamic segment for later. Later, we're going to be going going Google where we talk about looking at what's ranking on the SERP for video and audio content. Crystal Carter: In the tool, you can do this. In the tool, you can do this. You can see what things are ranking for which SERP features. There's a few different tools that will tell you which SERP features are available and you can look on mass at your tools rather than just looking at a single page, which we will discuss in more detail. But you can look at which keywords your page is ranking for and you can look at and see where there are video opportunities. Doing it that way is really, really effective and can help make sure that you're not wasting your time and that you're complimenting content that is ranking well as well. Mordy Oberstein: It could be anything. It could be like, okay, I'm going to spend time optimizing this transcript and on the SERP, all that's there are very short, quick answers. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: You have to just make sure you're lining up with the intent when you're repurposing content for the SERP. Crystal Carter: Of course. Sometimes, it's a question of having a little bit of a mix and match. I'm going to caveat and say this isn't necessarily editorially my favorite publication, but one of the things that the Daily Mail does is they do a TLDR. They'll have an article about, oh, Blue Ivy performed with Beyonce at the London Show, and yes she did. Blue Ivy did not come out at the Cardiff show and I was a little bit upset because I was at the Cardiff show and I was not at the London show, and I was like, whatever. Okay, fine. Mordy Oberstein: Wow. Crystal Carter: Anyway, so let's say there's this article about that. They will have the headline and they will also have a couple of TLDR points. So they'll say like, "Blue Ivy showed up for this song. Blue Ivy did this. Blue Ivy did that." They have a couple of lines and then they'll get into the long, long, long, long, long of the whole article. For instance, if you're seeing something like that and let's say maybe at this time, this moment in time, maybe you don't have time to do a full refit of your transcript page, but maybe you have time to do at the top a couple of quick summarizing points of this topic covers this, this, this and this. That's something that can help you to satisfy some of that quick TLDR intent and also allows you to have the people who want to get in and get the quote or who just want to jump to the part that they're interested in, which are those people, and I'm one of those people, then it allows you to satisfy both intents for instance. Mordy Oberstein: So if you're doing all these different intents and all these different pieces of content and all this repurposing to try to take your audio and your video content and make it ready for rankings among the traditional blue links, then you need to do it at scale, which means we need ideas about how to do this at scale, which is why LinkedIn's own principal content solutions evangelist, Purna Virji, is here to discuss how you can repurpose content at scale. By the way, she got a new book. I'll link in the show notes. We're plugging her book. Crystal Carter: Get the book. Mordy Oberstein: Get the book. Here's Purna. Purna Virji: Hi, Mordy and Crystal. I'm here to share three tips in just about three minutes on how you can repurpose your content at scale. To do this, we're going to take inspiration from Hollywood. Think of a movie like Star Wars. That one creative has been turned from movies into toys, video games, lunch boxes, clothes, you name it. That one idea has been used in a ton of different ways to make billions and billions of dollars overall. May some of that force be with us and it certainly can be with these three blockbuster strategies to repurpose content like a movie mogul. Let's start with tip number one. Now, if we think about biopics and movies based on true stories, they tend to have a really great track record at the box office. We can channel that same idea by building content from news and current affairs to be relevant and timely or suddenly rewrap our content in this news and current affairs newsjacking shell. Let's say, for example, you're a financial planning company and some existing content that you have provides advice on how people can reduce the inheritance bill. How can you reuse it in a way that feels current and fresh and still interesting? That's why you turn to the news. For example, a company called Birkett Long had seen this news story talking about how the actor Daniel Craig, aka James Bond, 007, will not be gifting his estate. So they created a post all about that and then they segued very, very cleverly into sharing their practical advice into how people can reduce their inheritance bill. So clever, existing content rewrap to feel fresh and current and get people to want to read it. Tip number two, remakes of older movies or foreign movies are big business. What we can learn from that is why create from scratch when you can curate from what's worked elsewhere? One of my favorite places to curate from, your data, especially data that can help you stand out during your customer's research process. Think about things like success or effectiveness rates or you can share how customers saw a big improvement. Any values or benefits for choosing you that can be found by data can be turned into really high-value content that already exists. I swear if Mulder and Scully from X-Files were content marketers, they'd agree that the content is out there. You just need to join forces with other teams to find it. Okay, tip number three, think about spin-offs, re-releases, movies made from TV shows, they all show us the value of reusing our own heads in new ways. But now when I'm saying reuse your existing content, I'm not saying just take the existing content and slap it everywhere. No, because that's not really exciting, is it? Something that many people miss, but is one of my favorite tips to do is to go and look at high-value or high-investment pieces, whether it's a research report or a white paper or some ultimate guide. Generally, there's a lot of really good richness in there and its content that can appeal to different types of audiences. So what I advise people to do is pull out different excerpts from it and create shorter pieces that are very highly targeted to certain demographics. Let's say if you are a B2B company and you are trying to appeal to maybe an HR or a manager would be the ultimate decision maker, but the employees of the company would be the end users. You'd want to appeal to both so that way, you can get employees asking and recommending your brand, but you also then appeal to managers and HR to assign the decision. This way, you can speak much more relevantly to each audience and it's not starting from scratch. You can do this by just repurposing what works. So remember, you can create dozens and dozens and dozens of assets with minimal work when you can use the same core IP in a variety of different ways. So anti-hustle culture, reuse, and recycle. Let's even be sustainable with our content. Thank you. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Purna. Love all the movie references. This is great. Crystal Carter: Yeah, movies, TV. We had Star Wars. I'm guessing. Where it’s giving me like sci-fi fan vibes because she mentioned Star Wars and the X-Files. Mordy Oberstein: I love sci-fi. I love sci-fi. You know what I also love? Repurposing content the right way. Crystal Carter: Yes, absolutely. Mordy Oberstein: It's so many good points. When I'm thinking about repurposing content, I'll tell you the way that I approach it is, what can I spin off really quickly that I can replicate over and over and over again without a lot of resources? Crystal Carter: Also, I think it's a question of what can add value to users in a new way? She talked about Star Wars for instance. One of the reasons why they rebooted it again was that- Mordy Oberstein: Make money, was to make lots of money. Crystal Carter: Well, there's that, but I think also, was to appeal to a new audience. We see this with a few different things where they'll take something that's a little bit retro and they'll reboot it with maybe a younger team or something. So then you have the people who remember it from the nostalgia, that audience, and then you have the people who are seeing it afresh and they're relating to the newer people who are involved with it. I think that this is the thing with your content. We've been talking about video in this particular instance. There might be people who really love a really chunky article that they can sit down with a nice cup of coffee and really get into. There's going to be some people who like video, who like to get video and they're getting most of their notifications via YouTube or via another video streaming platform. So if you're connecting with them in a different way, then that means that you're able to reach them in a way that they find most valuable. The content is going to be really good content, but if you're able to reformat it and repackage it, then yeah, all the better and great, better for user value. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, just make sure that you're not alienating your previous audience when you're creating this content like Star Wars did. I'm salty, very salty about the whole Star Wars thing. We had 20 years, 20 more, 30 years, 35 years, whatever, for Luke Skywalk to come. We're not even going to go there? I will say with repurposing content, one of the things that you want to think about is, hey look, you just got to get going with it sometimes. In order to get going with it, take the path of least resistance and build upon that and then take it from there because it can seem daunting. It can seem overwhelming and it can seem like five jobs all into itself. Get going. Find a quick way to get some momentum on it. See the value in it and that'll help you keep delving into that process even further. Crystal Carter: Yeah, absolutely. Mordy Oberstein: Now, since we're talking about video and audio content, as you probably know, audio and video content does live on the SERP itself. Google has SERP features for both video and audio, which means that you want to get video and content itself to show up on the SERP whenever appropriate. Let's see where video and audio content on the SERP is heading as we take a directional look at where things are trending towards when it comes to audio and video content on the SERP as we are going, going, going Google. And it's going, going Google. It's out of here. As a podcaster, an award-winning podcaster I might add,- Crystal Carter: I've seen the award. Thanks, Mordy for reminding me that you got an award. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Hold on. Crystal Carter: It's obnoxiously gold. Mordy Oberstein: It is so golden and it's so heavy. Crystal Carter: It's like, what's that? There is a guy, speaking of movies, the baddie in Goldfinger. Mordy Oberstein: I never liked those movies. Crystal Carter: No, Goldmember, Goldmember, the Austin Powers. Mordy Oberstein: Ah. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: That, I know. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: If it was Bond, I don't know, but Austin Powers, right up my alley. You may know that I like podcasting. One of the things I pay attention to as a podcaster is what happens on the SERP for podcast. We've all blog post about this on the SEO hub, the Wix SEO hub that I'll share in the show notes about how to optimize your podcast for search. One of the things that Google tends to show is a box or a carousel, however you want to describe it, that lists all of the podcasts related to the queries. If I search for baseball podcasts, I'll get organic results, but it'll generally sit under a giant box of actual podcast listings that represent baseball podcasts. Now, something that I happen to notice is that for more niche areas like SEO, for example, that carousel is often gone, which by the way, means that the organic placement itself, meaning your actual organic result for the podcast are being shown on lists that represent in the podcast are really important now or more important than they were before. They're really important before because that carousel is gone. I'm talking about, say particularly when you're searching for something, SEO podcast, the carousel, as of this recording, has been gone for a while. I was tracking, by the way, sports medicine podcast, not that I'll do a sports medicine podcast, but again, as a podcaster keeping tabs on these things, that's gone. The only time it shows up is when you search for best SEO podcast. Now the carousel is back, or best sports medicine podcast. I have a theory. Crystal Carter: What's your theory? Mordy Oberstein: I have a theory that Google realizes that people are trending towards not going to the SERP for podcast anymore. Crystal Carter: Interesting, interesting. Mordy Oberstein: They're just going to go to Spotify. Crystal Carter: That's very interesting. I think that that's absolutely true for some searches. You're going to get people who go straight to Spotify or maybe go straight to Google or to Google Podcasts or there's the Apple Podcasts as well. I think that it's a prime example of how SERP features are amazing, but it's also important that you rank in the plain blue links when you're doing things because we've seen that the podcast carousel, for instance, will show. I think on marketing podcasts at the moment, in the UK anyway, I'm getting the display, but as you're saying, it's very dynamic and I've seen that SEO podcast one go up and go down and go up and go down and show and not show. I think that if you're not ranking on the blue links at all, then when those features come and go, which they are want to do because Google might be doing a test or Google might be changing around, they might try to change the SERP feature, if you're not ranking on the plain blue links as well, then that's something that can be a challenge. This is one of the reasons why you should think about that for all kinds of content and not just podcasts as well. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, and something to really pay attention to and it's interesting that it's changing. If you look at traffic around, let's say Spotify itself, you see a lot of the direct traffic, the organic traffic, a lot of this is going up and up and up over time. We didn't even see how the market ecosystem's play into what happens on Google. I'm just speculating. I don't really know. Crystal Carter: Well, I think they're also sending a lot of traffic to Spotify. So certainly on mobile, if you look up, I think we mentioned Beyonce or whatever, but let's mention her again, but if you look up one of her songs or one of her albums or something, they might very well give you a link to Spotify that goes direct to that part of Spotify that goes to that page or goes to that song or goes to that playlist or whatever. So they're very happy to send people directly into apps in order to satisfy the user need. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. So that's audio. Let's talk about video because you started getting into this a little bit earlier around what's happening with the video SERP and what matters, what doesn't matter these days for getting your video onto the SERP. By the way, just some personal experience, we've seen it with our webinar videos. If you can get a video onto the SERP, you can drive a tremendous amount of views, traffic, or whatever to describe it to your YouTube channel, which is amazing. Crystal Carter: Right, and I think it's important to remember that those two things should work in conjunction. It's very much the case that if you have a video that is on your website and that you're using as a supplementary or complementary or even the primary aspects of a particular web page or blog, then you should also make sure that you're optimizing that page on YouTube. You can add in some of the chapters, for instance, on your YouTube videos. You can add in links back to your content on your YouTube video. You can add in keywords into your YouTube. You can also add in other things. Depending on how you're configuring your website, you can also use some of the attributes from your YouTube optimizations on your web page. So for instance, on Wix, we have Wix Video and one of the things that Wix Video does is you can embed a video from your website. Wix Video is using YouTube's configuration to generate schema markup for that video. So when you add a video onto Wix using Wix Video, it will automatically generate schema markup for that video and it will also pull out the attributes from the YouTube video. So not only will it pull out the summary and the name, but it will also pull out some of those keywords that you would add into your YouTube optimization. So if you are thinking coherently about your YouTube strategy and your video strategy as you're making your content, as you're optimizing your content, then you can find efficiencies through your optimizations. We've seen that users are very often clicking those links that are in the descriptions. We see that regularly. And also, the other thing that's really important to think about is backlinks. When you add a video onto YouTube, that counts as a backlink and that counts as referral traffic and that counts as Google being able to understand what's going on there. So that helps to distribute your content in a number of ways as well. Mordy Oberstein: And if you're going to have the video on the page, one thing to note as of more recent times is that in order for your page to have the video thumbnail show up, it has to be the video is the main content on the page. Crystal Carter: Oh, yeah. Mordy Oberstein: It's something to consider because if you do have that kind of video and you can show it where it's appropriate to show it towards the top of the SERP for that particular page, then do it because results that are visual are far more clickable than results that are just unto text. Crystal Carter: Yeah, absolutely. Put the video at the top. Put it at the top. Put it at the top. There's nothing worse than having a video on your page and it says at the bottom like, "Oh, this isn't the main video." When you go onto Google Search Console that you can look in your video pages report and you can see whether or not this thinks this is the main content of the page, and if it is the main content of the page, put it at the top so that Google knows that it's the main content of the page. You shouldn't be any ambiguity about that. Mordy Oberstein: Since we're talking that directionally about Google, the fact that Google's adding more video information into Search Console kind of tells you everything that you really need to know about where the web is at. Crystal Carter: Right. Precisely. Users are updating video all the time and users really enjoy video. We see the number of videos that people are watching only increases every year. The thing that's really strange is that even though that people are watching more and more videos, marketers are saying they should make more and more videos. If you ask users do they want more videos from marketers, they say yes. So I'm like, when will it end? How many videos do you need, people? No. Mordy Oberstein: Hey, I could literally waste my life away on YouTube. I am your target market. Crystal Carter: Right. I've definitely done that of an evening. I watched that video. It was seven ways to tie a scarf, which is years old, but that was peak what am I doing with my life. Because I knew all of the different ways. There's only so many ways to tie a scarf. Mordy Oberstein: I literally enjoy sports people talking about the same point, different sports hosts talking about the same point over and over and over again on a daily basis. Crystal Carter: I really like watching people get their hair done on YouTube. I like the before and after. I like that when somebody comes in and we're like, oh look, now they've got a different hairstyle. Well, it's very nice. Mordy Oberstein: I like yelling and screaming. You like- Crystal Carter: Potatoes, potatoes. Anyway. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah. Hey, look, by the way, I sent a bunch of tweets about baseball, which you never even saw. You should check out. It's old Slack. They're hilarious. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: They're talking about videos. Anyway, speaking of videos, we have a great Follow of the Week for you who does a lot of videos, but we got some news for you first. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: What's the news? Crystal Carter: I don't know. What is it? Mordy Oberstein: I don't know yet because I haven't gotten to yet, but I do know one thing. It's snappy. Here's this week's Snappy News. Snappy News, Snappy News, Snappy News. First things first, the SEO tools that track changes in the levels of rank fluctuations have all been red-hot. Google is really mixing up rank these days. To that, Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable writes that, "Coming to a theater near you, you could expect an official Google algorithm update this summer." Prepare for impact, red alert and a bunch of other urgency-related catchphrases. Also, per Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable again, Google Merchant Center: How To Build Trust With Your Customers. A lot of really, really, really interesting takeaways from this one. This is how Google's looking at authority related to products, looking at trust related to products. One of the things they wrote is "include an about us page on your website to show your authenticity and tell customers your unique story." It's a very underrated tactic. You really should focus on the about page. It's one of the only pages where you can explicitly tell Google who you are, what you do in very direct terms. Also tell your users at the same time, but from an SEO point of view, really, really helpful. Also, Google wrote, "Help potential customers understand how to use your products or how other customers have used them. Show reviews and testimonials about your products and business." I've longed held that one of the things that can help a landing page really do better on search is showing informational content, how to use the product, when to use the product, all of that FAQ-ish kind of stuff. Usually on landing pages, we're very conversion-minded, but Google's basically telling you here, if you have a little bit of an informational intent embedded in there, it could be really helpful and I think it very much resonates with users at the same time, especially if they're a little more skeptical. Last one for you from Matt Southern over at Search Engine Journal, Google's On Domain Name Selection: Branding Over Keywords. It's always good to get a refresh on this sort of points and to spell some SEO miss. This comes from Google's Search Off the Record podcast. The question, overarching question was, what do I do? Do I use a keyword to pick my domain name or do I choose a more brand-focused domain name? Gary from Google wrote for example, or rather he said, he didn't write, it's a podcast, Gary over Google said that basically, there's a very little impact from a ranking point of view using the keyword in the URL, but there could be a very big impact from a conversion point of view. I think the example that he gave was, let's say you are selling passport pictures and the domain name is something that relates to passport pictures like best passport picture place versus something very generic like get pictures. You're going to probably choose as a user the domain that is more specifically focused on what you're actually looking for. So keyword, not a big impact on rankings, but actually having the brand focus on what you do in very specific way, meaning don't worry about the keyword ranking stuff so much, more on the branding side can have a big conversion impact. John pointed out, and I always like John's perspective on these things, John Mueller said, "You should think long term because changing your domain name is always a hassle and you want to keep it for a long time if you can." What he's referring to is you want to think about how your business is going to expand. For example, I mentioned back in the day, the name of my website was vcrs.com when no one uses a VCR anymore. If the domain was more reflective on the wider media as opposed to the specific device, then I might be able to keep the same domain name as technology changes as my product or service offering expands. So really good points, really foundational points. Always good to get a refresher. Thank you, John. Thank you, Gary. Thank you Martin from Google for the podcast episode. We'll link to all these articles in the show notes and that is this week's Snappy News. As promised as always, so snappy. Crystal Carter: So snappy. Mordy Oberstein: Snappylicious, really. If it is a soft drink, it will be Snapple. Crystal Carter: I literally was just thinking of that and particularly I was thinking of the little poems that they put on their caps of the Snapple. That is proper microcopy. I don't know who thought of that, but the person who did- Mordy Oberstein: The branding right there. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's iconic. It's iconic. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Now, you know what else is iconic? Love my segues today. Sam Oh. If you're looking for videos about SEO, then you should definitely check out Sam Oh and the videos he's done for, Ahrefs. I'll call them timeless classics on SEO YouTube. Crystal Carter: We were very fortunate to have Sam Oh join us at a Wix SEO event at BrightonSEO. Mordy Oberstein: Well, I don't want to mess this up. This is our Follow of the Week, people. Sam Oh is our Follow of the Week. I got this, unprofessional award-winning podcast host. Crystal Carter: He is award-winning. You need to put that on your YouTube bio. Okay, so our Follow of the Week is Sam Oh. We were very fortunate to have him at a Wix SEO event during BrightonSEO recently. He walked in and he went, "Hi, I'm Sam Oh," and I was like, "Sam, everyone here knows who you are. We all know who you are." He's had billions and billions of views on YouTube and the guy is such a nice guy. He is so methodic and so clear in the way that he creates his videos and the content that he creates and the way that he approaches SEO and it's really very much a resource. It's the kind of content that is just exceptional. He's been doing it for a few years and he's a great asset to the SEO community, an absolute pillar. So absolutely follow Sam Oh, not only because his content's great, but he's a nice guy. Mordy Oberstein: And just to add value of it, is that on YouTube, I don't know how to put this gently, sometimes the SEO content is not of the highest quality and it's hard to know who to listen to. Sam is somebody you should listen to, so do follow Sam on Twitter. It's @samS-G-O-H, so S-A-M-S-G-O-H. We'll link to his Twitter profile in the show notes. Now, if we were taking our own advice, we would repurpose our outro every single week. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: Sometimes it does pay to do custom stuff, so we're going to do a custom outro. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: We're not going to repurpose from week to week. Crystal Carter: All right. Mordy Oberstein: We value the podcast. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Crystal Carter: Is it you're… Mordy Oberstein: You get what I'm saying? I'm saying we're talking about repurposing and saving time, but we're not repurposing something that many, many podcasts often repurpose, which is the intro in the outros. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Oh, good. Okay. So are we saying goodbye now? Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah, sorry. This is my way of saying goodbye. Crystal Carter: Okay. Bye, everybody. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much for joining us at SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with a new episode as we dive into, does social media matter for SEO? Look for wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check all the great content and webinars at the Wix SEO Learning Hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

Is programmatic SEO a good option for your site? The benefit can be huge but what about content quality and accuracy? Are you looking to create content at scale dynamically? Should you be? If so, when and how do you provide unique value along the way? Wix’s Crystal Carter and programmatic SEO curmudgeon Mordy Oberstein give their take on the benefits and pitfalls of programmatic SEO. Paul Andre De Vera gives his tips on keeping things personal when working programmatically so that you can still speak to your audience naturally. Don’t change the program… Dive into this episode of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast all about programmatic SEO! Back Getting with the programmatic SEO program Is programmatic SEO a good option for your site? The benefit can be huge but what about content quality and accuracy? Are you looking to create content at scale dynamically? Should you be? If so, when and how do you provide unique value along the way? Wix’s Crystal Carter and programmatic SEO curmudgeon Mordy Oberstein give their take on the benefits and pitfalls of programmatic SEO. Paul Andre De Vera gives his tips on keeping things personal when working programmatically so that you can still speak to your audience naturally. Don’t change the program… Dive into this episode of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast all about programmatic SEO! Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 39 | May 24, 2023 | 34 MIN 00:00 / 34:13 This week’s guests Paul Andre De Vera You’ll find Paul Andre de Vera speaking on podcasts/webinars, looking for the next great place to devour a delicious rib-eye steak, and occasionally sipping a glass of whiskey. All while coaching, serving clients, and producing the SEO Video Show. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, mahalo for joining the SERP's Up podcast, we're putting out some groovy new insights around what's happened in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, Head of Brand SEO at Wix. Joined by Better Head SEO Communications. The person who knows all about all of the things most of the time. Because if I say all of the time, I'll get a snarky look. Crystal Carter. Crystal Carter: There's no snarky looks. It's only happy looks. Mordy Oberstein: I say, you know all of the things, but everything. Like you're like, oh no, that's a lot of pressure Mordy. I don't like that. So... Crystal Carter: That's true. They say a man who knows something, knows that he knows nothing at all, or at least that's what Erica Badu said that one time. She's very wise. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, she's wise. I think Socrates said like, the only difference between me and you is that I know what I don't know. Crystal Carter: There you go. There you go. Mordy Oberstein: And you're a narcissistic, self-centered... I think that was the implication, what he was saying. Crystal Carter: Erica Badu and Socrates obviously like two grateful... Mordy Oberstein: He's a pod. Crystal Carter: Designs entirely. Mordy Oberstein: This SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can not only subscribe to our SEO newsletter, Searchlight over at wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but where you can combine the power of Python and Wix's full stack dev tool Velo to build out programmatic dynamic content for yourself. Behold the full-on nerdiness and power of Wix. And if you don't believe you can do it, Colt Sliva over on Glassdoor did in his article all about just that because he literally did just that. We'll link to it in the show notes because today, guess what we're talking about? Programmatic SEO. That's right. We're talking about programmatic SEO as in what the heck is programmatic SEO? Is programmatic SEO a zero-sum game? Can everyone get with the program? What works, what doesn't work, and what to be wary of when doing programmatic SEO. And all-time SEO, all star and knowledge bomb dropper, Paul Andre De Vera will join us, share his tips on keeping things personal when working programmatically, and we'll dive into a special tool around programmatic SEO and beyond. As I already mentioned, Wix is Velo, and of course we have the snappiest of SEO News and who should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. So program, get your program here as episode number 39 of the SERP's Up podcast helps you get with the program, the programmatic SEO program that is. I went full on, I'm a vendor at a baseball stadium. Crystal Carter: Well, I mean, they're very good at their jobs. I do love that when they, the guy's got the train. They- Mordy Oberstein: Programs! Crystal Carter: Who wants? I'm like, yeah- Mordy Oberstein: Hear hear! At Bryant, that's like, we had our stand-up Brighten SEO. We were giving out beer. I'm like, this is a perfect time to be a baseball stadium and a beer here. They don't do that anymore. You have to go to the stands to get your, that was half the fun. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Guy walking around yelling, hotdog! And then you have to pass it through the row to the person who actually ordered the hotdog. So everyone's hands all over your hotdog. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's all very communal. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Crystal Carter: Very authentic. Sometimes you buy a thing just because of the experience. I used to go to green grocers and he just had platitudes for everything. I'd be like, oh, can I buy some grapes? He's like, all right, sweetheart, can I have some oranges? All right treacle. And what about some satsumas or something's like, oh, all right my pet. And I just kept buying things just to see if he ran out of stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Nice, nice. Crystal Carter: He never did. I don't know how, but yeah, I found it quite amusing. Mordy Oberstein: That is an amazing set. It's almost like Trader Joe's. When you go to Trader Joe's, they have a whole experience, ringing the bell, or wearing the pirate shirt. You go just for that. Crystal Carter: My Trader Joe's experience has never been like that. I've never worn a pirate shirt. Mordy Oberstein: No, I don't wear the pirate shirt, but they're wearing pirate shirts and stuff and Hawaiian shirts and pirate patches and all... It's all thematic at Trader Joe's. Crystal Carter: Thematic programmatic. What are we talking about today? Mordy Oberstein: Okay, so looking to create hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of pages of content that follow the same template or format? Then programmatic SEO might for you. It also might not be for you, but we'll get to that in due course. So programmatic SEO, if I had to define it while standing on one foot, should I stand on, I will stand on one foot. I'm sitting down. I don't know how to do that. It's when you pull data or content in from a database into a content template, and then by natural result you have a heap of pages for your website. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: While some would argue that e-com, Kevin Indig, isn't a case for programmatic SEO, I would perhaps argue and say that it is a really easy case to point to about using programmatic SEO wisely. You pull things in like the product name, the description, which you can use for your title tag and meta description respectively as well, and all the naming from the inventory database. And you plug that in with your usual shipping and return policies you have on every page. And you basically have spun up programmatic content for who knows how many number of product pages without actually typing a single word. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: That's programmatic. I feel like some will disagree. Crystal Carter: There's a lot of people who are using this for e-commerce, incredibly, incredibly productively. Wayfair is someone who used programmatic SEO and has used some of Google's own tools for some of them work in there and they're crushing it. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Hey, look. It works and it's good. Crystal Carter: I think it's entirely the kind of thing where you have something that has a lot of attributes, that has a lot of structured data, has a lot of things. For instance, if you think about a sofa, you're going to talk about the material. You're going to talk about how many seats it has. You're going to talk about whether it reclines, whether it has Bluetooth. I saw a sofa with Bluetooth- Mordy Oberstein: No. We were just shopping for a new sofa. Our children have destroyed it. And we had it for 16 years. I love it. It's great. I'm going to keep it, but not in the living room because I can't part with it. Crystal Carter: That's such a dad thing to do. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. And there's like all these, I just want a sofa. And it's so much stuff. Sorry, sidetrack. Crystal Carter: Right. But I think when you have a product that has lots of attributes, and particularly if you're thinking about something like Google Merchant Center encourages you, it requires you to add in all of those attributes to your data sets, to the information that you have about your products anyway. So it makes sense to take that data, take those attributes, take that information and use it to generate content in a programmatic way. And so e-commerce is absolutely perfect for this. And it also means that you're much more consistent with your product pages when you're creating your product pages so that everything has the same information- Mordy Oberstein: Which makes making changes and fixing things. And it's also easier. So just one last point before we actually dive into the thick of it. Often is what I think separates our programmatic SEO as a content strategy from regular traditional SEO is that often when you're doing this, your goal is not to rank well for a specific page or specific keyword word, but to spin up so much content that it doesn't really matter. That if you have a hundred thousand pages ranking nine or 10 on the SERP, you'll get all of that same kind of traffic or the amount of traffic that you would've had if you were ranking number one with a far fewer pages kind of thing. So that's of course is kind of tricky from a strategic point of view. And all of the metrics might not be the same or as important when you're working programmatically and dynamically. So that's another thing to kind of keep in mind. But that's sort of the general gist on programmatic SEO. I for one, just going to say this at the onset. I'm a bit of a programmatic SEO, curmudgeon, even though I do think it's a great place to test things, but that's just me. Crystal, what about you? Crystal Carter: I think that it gives you the opportunity to serve content for really long tail keywords. This is something that Miriam Myriam Jessier talks about in one of the articles that we have on the SEO hub. And because you're able to use the information about your products, the entities associated with your products, the keywords associated with your products as fodder for content creation in a programmatic way, it's easy to spin up very long tail, very specific keyword categories or category pages or product pages for specific things. And so I think programmatic SEO is great when it solves a problem. Like any SEO. All of the SEO that you're doing is all about adding value for users. That's at the end of the day, adding value for users. And Google's measuring whether or not you're adding value for users. So when they ranking, that's a reflection of the value that they can ascertain that you add for users. So Etsy does this programmatic SEO, Wayfair I mentioned as well. If you're able to drill down into those Etsy keywords, gold earrings with leopard print trim in a hoop shape, and I'm looking specifically for those things, or shoes in this size and this color of this thing. And I'm able to drill all the way down and not have to filter through all of your pages and not have to navigate to everything, but to get exactly what I want from the SERP, then absolutely that's where programmatic SEO wins. And I think that that's where programmatic SEO really, really succeeds. Mordy Oberstein: So let me ask, when would you specifically recommend or not recommend programmatic SEO? Crystal Carter: If you have a large amount of content and you have a large number of products, and also if you have the tooling to do so, as well and to maintain it, I think also a lot of businesses that are working in a sort of high product turnover, like fast moving consumer goods space, they're going to need to do that because they need to be able to spin up content straight away so that they can sort of say, let's capitalize on say a trend that's happening straight away, or let's take this massive catalog. Because I've worked in, I previously worked for a toy manufacturer and we had all of our products, that we manufactured and we had the one, all these giant spreadsheets and all of that sort of stuff. And if you are trying to manually implement making all these changes to every particular product, then it's impossible. It is an impossible task. So when you have a big product set, then programmatic SEO is a fantastic one. Also, if it's something that you're seeing that your competitors are doing, and you might want to think, I need to keep pace because this is what consumers are going to be expecting to see. So it's always important to think about not just how people are searching on your site or how people are arriving on your site, but how the wider ecosystem is also experiencing a search. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great point because it doesn't, first up, doesn't have to be zero-sum. It doesn't mean I only doing programmatic SEO. If you see that competitors doing it for certain types of keywords, certain types of pages or whatever it is, and you can do that for that. And if you want to take a demonstrate for different pages, you can do that for that. You could also programmatically build on certain elements of a page. Why wouldn't you? For example, on the e-comm side. Let's say for whatever reason you want to write custom descriptions. God bless. The shipping and the return policy. If you're not just reusing that on every page programmatically, I don't know why you wouldn't, for example. So that's a very hyperbolic example, but it's not zero-sum. You can use programmatic SEO in certain places on your website. You can programmatically build certain parts of the page. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. But I will say, the way I think about it as well, going back to my point of being an SEO curmudgeon about programmatic SEO is I kind of view it AI. AI generated content. It's very, very similar in my mind because you're talking about the possibility of running into creating a lot of low quality content. Or a lot of un-targeted content. And I feel like sometimes you do need to be careful. Cases where the language structure does matter. So for example, in the product review space. To programmatically build out product review pages, if you're a website that has, that's your whole thing, you're like a CNET and you're programmatically just like you're taking certain inputs, taking output certain inputs and creating pros and cons list out of them whatever you're doing. I think that's going to be a space where you have to be careful. Where you might build it out programmatically, but somehow supplement it at the same time. Crystal Carter: Yeah, yeah. I think that goes back to your point of having a mix of programmatic content and I guess more manually created content. But I think that essentially we're working in a space where a lot of times we have massive data sets that we're trying to wrangle both from an SEO point of view, but also from a sort of just general marketing point of view. And I think that the efficiency that the programmatic SEO potentially combined with it, because this is the other thing that a lot of people are combining programmatic SEO and AI content, particularly for content generation. So for instance, you would say, I have a product with this attribute, this attribute, that attribute and that attribute. And then it'll write a product description for that particular, then you can use generative AI to write a product description for that content. And that is something that is going to be saving a lot of time. And also, again, producing a lot of consistency with those things. Though again, as we have with any AI thing, editing is key and QA is crucial. So checking over those things and making sure that you're not publishing things, that AI generated content that isn't accurate and making sure that you've trained your prompts so that they accurately reflect what your products do, how they work. So I think that we did a webinar on chat GPT and AI writers and how to use them. And one of the really good examples that Ross Hudgins showed was giving a generative tool, a dataset, for instance, say a product dataset and asking them to create a piece of copy based on that. And I think that if you're able to figure out the best prompt that works for your type of data set, then that can help you to scale content very quickly. So I think that it can help you to, could connect with niches really quickly. It can help you to spin up a lot of things. But also I think from a programmatic point of view, if you're talking about thin content, or maybe not necessarily low quality content, but maybe sort of fairly repetitive content, and Google talks about this, they show a case study for Wayfair, for instance, about this, for ads. So for instance, if you're a locksmith and you're working generally in New York, you might want a PPC landing page that's locksmith for the Bronx, locksmith for Brooklyn, locksmith for Westchester, locksmith, for Manhattan, for Harlem, for wherever. And spinning those out programmatically? Yeah, brilliant, because you're not indexing them anyway and you just need them to match what the query is that you're serving for your ads. And this is something that Google is advertising on their Think With Google, there's a great Think With Google example- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, on the ads side. It makes absolute total sense to do that. And even on the SEO side, a lot of it's the same thing. If it's a local pages go, most of that page's content is going to be very, very, very similar. And it's a matter of going in and changing a couple things around here and there and make it a little bit better and unique then do that. One of the other things that kind of touch on, something you were talking about that I wanted to quickly bring up is that when you do this, it's a great environment to test things. So if you want to have a certain way of constructing the page or certain type of description, it's a way of figuring out what really works, what doesn't work. Because you're working with A, a huge amount of page, so the data you're going to get back is going to be way more accurate than, oh, I have a couple of pages made a title tag change here. Is that really, so you are in an environment that already lends itself the testing where the results are way more accurate equals make those changes much quicker and it helps you drive. Okay. Here's how I think Google's kind of understanding me, which is kind of what Colt did in the post that we mentioned before. He spun up a website programmatically and he wanted with the idea of seeing, okay, what sticks? How is Google understanding this content and is this the right way to go with it or is it not the right way to go? So he spun up the programmatic content as a way of seeing what direction to take the final draft, which I thought was really interesting. Crystal Carter: Yeah, yeah. Testing is absolutely crucial because Google will very often look at pages as a page type. So for instance, if you see a search console error, they will say, here's an example of a page like this. If you have 45,000 product pages, they're not going to show you the error for every single, the in-detail for every single product page. But they'll say, here's an example of one that you have. And then you can look at that. And so if you submit it up programmatically, then the fix, you might make a big mistake at once, but you can also make a big fix at once. That's really useful to being able to test that. And also, if you've ever done CRO testing, one of the things that can sometimes be a challenge, particularly when you're doing one page at a time, is actually getting the traffic volume to get any kind of data that's of any use. So if you're spinning up, many many pages have the same basic format, the same kind of iterations in terms of your CRO, then you're going to be able to get a lot more data more quickly than if you were to do it one page at a time. I think one of the other benefit, I can't remember if Colt touched on this as well, but one of the other benefits of programmatic SEO is that it's really easy to align it with things like schema markup, for instance. So I'm think I've mentioned them before, but I remember I judged as a search award and one of the entries was from Dairy Queen. And one of the things I love, they spun up all of these and they programmatically did this. They spun up all of these pages for their Dairy Queen locations and it has all of the attributes and they're aligned with the things that are on Google business profile. They're aligned with the things that are in their structured data and they're aligned with the things that are on their page. And so you can see that consistency going all the way through, what the hours are, where the location is, what the amenities are, whether they have delivery or pickup, or whether they accept credit cards and all of that sort of stuff. So they're able to spin those all up and they're also able to roll them all out to multiple channels. So you get all your pages that are marked up in the same way, and you have all the schema that works with all of those. And then you have all of those are also attributed to each of those Google business profiles. So what you get with programmatic SEO is the ability to use your content as a data set and to be able to use it consistently across multiple channels, which is epic. Mordy Oberstein: So taking into a completely different direction, going back to what we were talking about before about trying to add a personal touch, all your programmatic content to help us with that is the host of the SEO Video Show great YouTube show. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: At SEO. Knowledge Bombs. Crystal Carter: Fantastic. Mordy Oberstein: It's fantastic. Here's Paul Andre De Vera about when working with content at scale, how do you ensure you keep the right tone and personal touch with your content? Paul Andre De Vera: Maintaining a personal touch in your content is important to building a strong personal brand voice and establishing connection with your audience. One effective way I achieve this is by writing the way I speak. Recording yourself, taking and getting it transcribed can be an awesome exercise to help you capture your personal tone and language. You can then use transcriptions as a basis for your content, editing and refining it as needed to make sure it meets your personal language and fits within the context of your content strategy. However, when working with tools like Grammarly, it's important not to accept every suggestion blindly. These tools can help identify and correct grammar and spelling errors, and they may also try to substitute words and phrases that are part of your natural speaking style. I personally like using words such as, awesome, love it, fabulous. These are examples of words that Grammarly may flag, but is part of my personal language. Incorporating personal touches like these can help your content feel more genuine and relatable to your audience, building a stronger connection and establishing your brand as approachable and authentic. Just be your silly self consistently online just as you are offline. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Paul. Definitely. Again, check out Paul on Twitter at Paul Andre and check out the SEO Video Show Crystal Carter: On YouTube. Mordy Oberstein: On YouTube. Look, by the way, his point about Grammarly. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: I feel that in every bone of my body. Crystal Carter: Yo. Mordy Oberstein: Because sometimes it's like, change this change. I'm like, no. Crystal Carter: No. Mordy Oberstein: No. Crystal Carter: No. I'm not changing that. Mordy Oberstein: Not changing that. That's a whole linchpin. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Like Grammarly, that's my vibes. That's just my style. That's how I do it. Also with Grammarly, it's obviously they're making it so they and talk about Grammarly all the time. But I remember reading, I'm sure I mentioned this before Toni Morrison had a book and she just, she's, it was one sentence for the whole page and it was beautiful and it was fantastic. But I also say, and and and and and. And sometimes I'm trying to get some rhythm. Mordy Oberstein: Like, like, like, like. Crystal Carter: I do say like. Mordy Oberstein: I'm talking about myself. I say it all the time. Crystal Carter: I'm from California. That's how we do... it is what it is. But I think that, yeah, what he's saying about adding in, making sure that you keep your tone of voice is really important. I think about brands that have a tone and it's really important. So for instance, MailChimp has a tone that they just sort of have a tone, even when it's a small little piece of micro copy, there's definitely a tone of voice to it. There's a couple of other brands that I can think of that are a little bit, there's brands that are a little bit salty sometimes. So the- Mordy Oberstein: Wendy's? Crystal Carter: Duolingo can be a little bit salty sometimes. Duolingo has a very dry sense of humor as a brand, and that's kind of their style. And even sometimes to the point where you can recognize the style, you can recognize someone from their styles. And I think with some of the AI things, like Google I/O thing announced that Google Cloud is making it so that you can use your own data sets to train information. So it might be that you add your language style guide into something to maybe move that into programmatic SEO. There's a lot of moving parts going on at the moment, but I think that making sure that you've got your clear tone of voice when you're spinning things up programmatically is, yeah, really important. Mordy Oberstein: Super important. This again, it tells all the time, and I like my soapbox where brand marketing overlaps with SEO, it's such an under discussed undervalued point. And it's something that I know we talk about, you need to align with your designers and your devs, but a lot of times you need to align more with your brand marketers because they're the ones defining how you're going to have to speak publicly. And if they see the programmatic content and they see that it's not in line with the brand tone of voice, they're not going to be happy. So better get that done beforehand as opposed to after hand, which is, I know not a word, but it definitely- Crystal Carter: After hand? Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Why would you say beforehand and then after the fact? Makes no sense. Let's be- Crystal Carter: Should it be before fact and- Mordy Oberstein: It should either be before fact or it should be after hand. Crystal Carter: After... Nobody's saying after hand, it's- Mordy Oberstein: Now we are. Crystal Carter: Stop trying to make fetch happen. Mordy Oberstein: So anyway, after hand that, speaking of programmatic content and SEO, we already mentioned cold sliver and how we use a combination of Python and a little tool we call Velo to dynamically create pages at scale. So we figured we jump into this fellow called Velo with a programmatic edition of Tool Time. Velo is a full stack dev tool inbuilt into Wix. So you can enable dev mode, which by the way, Phil should be getting a Mortal Combat... Enable dev mode. Crystal Carter: We should talk to the team and be like, what we need is an explosion though. It goes... Dev mode. Mordy Oberstein: And just like a firebomb goes off on the page. Crystal Carter: Instead of deploying, you should just go finish him. Mordy Oberstein: Dev mode activated. Finish him. Crystal Carter: And then when you run your code, it should go ….. Mordy Oberstein: I'll see if we can add to the roadmap. Crystal Carter: Okay, I'll do that. I'll do that. Mordy Oberstein: I'll advocate. This is why we advocate very much a lot internally. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: I feel we should add this to our list of things to advocate for. Crystal Carter: Dev mode. Mordy Oberstein: Activate it. Okay. So yeah, back on track. Velo. Crystal Carter: Yeah. So Velo. So Velo, I love Velo. I love Velo so much. Velo is absolutely brilliant. It is a JavaScript like playground essentially within Wix. And you can build JavaScript things all the way through it. And there's lots of fantastic stuff. So we have something called the content manager, and essentially you can take a spreadsheet, it's a spreadsheet sort of format, and it works really well for programmatic- Mordy Oberstein: Programmatic SEO. Because you're connected to a data set and there's your content. Crystal Carter: You can also connect to external datasets, you can add your own datasets, you can connect to other databases as well. And there's lots of tools for Tree to be able to do that. And basically you can use it for, you can use it with JavaScript to create all sorts of fantastic things. So Mark Preston is somebody who created an SEO jobs board, for instance, using Velo. And so you're able to create tools there. And I've also created a few tools myself. I created a Bingo game on my website. Mordy Oberstein: Did you really? You used it to get a Bingo game. I did not know that. How did I not know that? Crystal Carter: I need a bingo game for, it's like a conference SEO bingo game. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, that's right, you did. I do remember that. Okay, fine. I'm not a horrible friend. Crystal Carter: So the other thing that's great about Velo is that Velo has, so you might say, well, but I'm not a JavaScript person. I don't know all the things. That's okay. Because first of all, our documentation is extremely extensive. Second of all, within Velo, they have tons of guidance in the actual code. So if you input the code incorrectly, it will tell you. It will give you an error or it'll give you a little thing that says, hey, you should have this, or there should be a variable, or you should update that part. So that's really useful. The other thing that's great is that you can use it with an LOM. So for instance, Bard. Bard is trained on loads of bits of code, so is Chat GPT. So I have, I've created something and my JavaScript is, okay. And that's generous. My JavaScript is okay. But I was able to go, I was basically able to take some of the guidance that I got from Velo. So Velo says, oh, this bit of code isn't quite right. And I'm like, okay. So I popped that into GPT and I was like, hey, GPT, I got this error for this code, but I wanted to do this. And GPT was like, yeah, try this bit of code. So then I popped it back into Velo and then I got a different error and then I put that back into GPT, and by the time I'd gone back and forth between these two things, I was able to build something that was amazing. So what's really cool is that we have... It's got so many different functionalities in it. There's something called Velo Examples, which is a collection of lots of really cool things that people have built on Velo. And on each of those pages there is, there's the code, there's a demo, and you can copy the code from it. The other thing that's great about Velo is that the code is transferable. So for instance, we have lots, it's all sort of API based, and we have a library that's Wix SEO. So if you have a piece of code that is for changing the canonical, we had this situation, didn't we Mordy? Mordy, you were like, oh- Mordy Oberstein: A bomb, A podcast website. Yeah. Crystal Carter: Somebody was like, oh, I want to change the canonical on this podcast change. I was like, oh, you can do this. He was like, oh, maybe you can set up a call. I was like, no, literally just copy and paste this code. Mordy Oberstein: The code, yeah. Crystal Carter: Copy and paste this code and put it on that page and it will work because it's all sort of set up to work. Mordy Oberstein: You could do that dynamically. You could dynamically as structured data to whatever you want, kind of set up pages, you want to do it. There's so much you can do with it. Crystal Carter: And you can create your own variable. So if you have a piece of content on your page, let's say you've got the word or something, you can create a variable. You can name that variable, you can use that variable in your code further down. We also have connections into NPM. So there's like lots of API integrations that are built in Google sheets and Google Maps, for instance. But you can also connect into NPM. I literally love Velo. The team behind Velo have nurtured this and have spent so much time making it fantastic. Mordy Oberstein: And there's so much content, by the way. If you, we'll link to a bunch of it. But there's an endless amount of content they've put out there... It's a cavernous library of content Velo, which we'll link to it. It's awesome. Crystal Carter: And I think the thing that's great is working with those things, but also, particularly if you're a noob, like me, to JavaScript, is that the things like GPT, like Bard that are trained on code, you can say in JavaScript, how do I do this? So if there's something that's specific, you can also back up some of the things with general information about JavaScript and things like that. So it's fantastic. And it also opens up a whole world of functionality on Wix, and I think it's going to be fantastic as we go into the headless space. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I was going to say it. It's perfect. Because we've just gotten headless for this. For example, the CMS that you just mentioned. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: You can use that. It's headless. You can take that and you can plug that into your front end, and you can use the Wix function, that CMS functionality kind of wherever. Crystal Carter: And the things that with the headless Wix situation, a lot of the things that they leaned on in the first instance are particularly lean themselves to programmatic SEO and programmatic data creation. So for instance, like the events, the bookings- Mordy Oberstein: Booking, products... Crystal Carter: Products, all of that sort of stuff, it leans itself really well... Lends itself really well to that. So between the headless space and the Velo and all of the amazing functionalities- Mordy Oberstein: There's a lot of automation you could be doing. Crystal Carter: A lot of stuff you can do. I mean, who even needs to touch it? Mordy Oberstein: Who needs humans anymore? Crystal Carter: But I think it's really great, and I think it's great to see the combination of opening up the platform more and also bringing in some of the AI elements that we have and making it really accessible to lots of different developers and lots of different development needs. Mordy Oberstein: It's really cutting edge stuff from really great people. Now you know what else is new? The actual news. So here's this week's Snappy News. Snappy news, two little juicy SEO tidbits for you this week. First up, as reported from Matt Southern over at Search Engine Journal, Neva, the ad free search engine announces closure. Neva was built, by the way, as a sort of a way to downplay the role of ads and search and increase the role of content creators. It had an AI chat experience, and it had a pretty good little search engine. Unfortunately will be shuttered, which is very unfortunate. You never want to see anything fail. It was a nice idea. It really does though, kind of highlight how hard it is to compete with Google. So as you see things developing in the AI world and you see, oh, Google's going down... Take a deep breath, take pause. It is very hard to compete with Google. From his royal Rustiness, the king of bricks, Mr. Rusty Brick, AKA Barry Schwartz, the fourth. Google helpful content update can demote and now promote content. As you may know, and as we've talked about here on this very podcast, Google announced that the helpful content update will be getting a revamp. This was announced at Google I/O 2023. In specific, Google said the system would help identify "hidden gems". Seeing this, friend of the show, an avid Yankees fan, Glen Gabe, asked Google search liaison Denny Sullivan, if this was an update to the current functioning of the ranking system or a new ability altogether. Denny said, "The helpful content system will be working to identify and show more hidden gems on search, along with still working to ensure unhelpful content is not performing well." So in a nutshell, the helpful content update will not only be about hitting sites with low quality, but will now have a net positive impact of uplifting the hidden gems of the web. I feel like there should be a special badge if you are one of these hidden gems of the web that says, hidden gem of the web, you could plaster on your homepage. And that is this week's Snappy News. I just got to say, I just love by the way, that when the news happens so organically like that, in this case, Glen Gabe asking a question, Barry covering it. They're great people, Glen and Barry. Speaking of people, by the way, that brings us to our follow of the week, which is, we've already mentioned him three or four times at this point. He is Glassdoor's, SEO, former member of the Wix SEO Advisory Board. He's a writer for the Web Almanac. He's Colt Sliva. Crystal Carter: He's such a nice guy. He's so smart. Mordy Oberstein: The nicest dude, right? Crystal Carter: So nice. Mordy Oberstein: The nicest guy. Crystal Carter: And so smart. I think the first time that I came across Colt was he was speaking at SMX about something very clever, and I remember watching the talk and I was like- Mordy Oberstein: It was very clever. Crystal Carter: I remember watching him. I was like, this guy knows stuff. This guy is so smart. Mordy Oberstein: I came across him the first time at, when he was at IOL rank, we were working Gareth Sussman. I think he was on my podcast I was doing at the time. I don't remember anything about- Crystal Carter: Probably. Mordy Oberstein: Probably. Crystal Carter: Probably. Mordy Oberstein: The smartest guy, the nicest guy. I worked with him obviously on the Wix SEO advisory board, but also we worked together on the SEO section, on the web almanac. He was such a resource. I will tell you right now that Web Almanac, or at least the SEO section, would not have happened if it weren't for Colt. Crystal Carter: The other thing I would say about Colt is that he has such a healthy curiosity and people say, oh, what do you need to be in SEO? Like, do you need this skill or that skill or that skill. I'm like, fundamentally, you need to be curious. You need to be the kind of person who would talk about- Mordy Oberstein: John Mueller. Crystal Carter: Yeah, you need to be the kind of person who wants to go down the rabbit hole who wants, hears like, oh, there's a new toilet. They're like, what does it do? What happens if I do this? What if I do that? What if I look at this? Mordy Oberstein: You change the JavaScript around on the toilet, what happens? Crystal Carter: Exactly. And Colt, he likes to build things. He likes to explore things, and he's super approachable and super interested. So yeah, can't say nice enough things about Colt, like do follow Colt. Mordy Oberstein: Don't just follow Colt, interact with Colt, talk to Colt. Crystal Carter: Tell him that we sent you. Tell him that Mordy and Crystal sent you. Mordy Oberstein: Talk to him. He's on Twitter at, S I G N O R C O L T. Of course, we'll link to his Twitter profile in the show notes because I don't expect you remember how to spell that by listening to this in your car. But that does bring us to the end of the podcast. I would programmatically end the podcast now. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: But I don't know how to do that with my VO. I guess I could record an ending and plug that in every single time, but I feel like that would not be doing justice to the audience and to the podcast. Crystal Carter: Yeah, well, you know... Mordy Oberstein: Not a good use of programmatic. Crystal Carter: No, I don't think so. No, not on this particular occasion. Mordy Oberstein: Okay, fine. Crystal Carter: You betcha. Mordy Oberstein: Here's the custom ending. Thank you for joining us on the SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with an all new episode as we dive into how to get started with international SEO as we chat with drum roll, Aleyda Solis. Look for wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO learning lab over at www.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content and webinars on the Wix SEO learning lab at you guessed it. wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love and SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Paul Andre De Vera Colt Sliva Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter Programmatic content expansion The SEO Video Show Wix Velo News: Neeva, The Ad-Free Search Engine, Announces Closure Google Helpful Content Update Can Demote & Now Promote Content: Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Paul Andre De Vera Colt Sliva Resources: SERP's Up Podcast Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter Programmatic content expansion The SEO Video Show Wix Velo News: Neeva, The Ad-Free Search Engine, Announces Closure Google Helpful Content Update Can Demote & Now Promote Content: Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha, mahalo for joining the SERP's Up podcast, we're putting out some groovy new insights around what's happened in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, Head of Brand SEO at Wix. Joined by Better Head SEO Communications. The person who knows all about all of the things most of the time. Because if I say all of the time, I'll get a snarky look. Crystal Carter. Crystal Carter: There's no snarky looks. It's only happy looks. Mordy Oberstein: I say, you know all of the things, but everything. Like you're like, oh no, that's a lot of pressure Mordy. I don't like that. So... Crystal Carter: That's true. They say a man who knows something, knows that he knows nothing at all, or at least that's what Erica Badu said that one time. She's very wise. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, she's wise. I think Socrates said like, the only difference between me and you is that I know what I don't know. Crystal Carter: There you go. There you go. Mordy Oberstein: And you're a narcissistic, self-centered... I think that was the implication, what he was saying. Crystal Carter: Erica Badu and Socrates obviously like two grateful... Mordy Oberstein: He's a pod. Crystal Carter: Designs entirely. Mordy Oberstein: This SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can not only subscribe to our SEO newsletter, Searchlight over at wix.com/seo/learn/newsletter, but where you can combine the power of Python and Wix's full stack dev tool Velo to build out programmatic dynamic content for yourself. Behold the full-on nerdiness and power of Wix. And if you don't believe you can do it, Colt Sliva over on Glassdoor did in his article all about just that because he literally did just that. We'll link to it in the show notes because today, guess what we're talking about? Programmatic SEO. That's right. We're talking about programmatic SEO as in what the heck is programmatic SEO? Is programmatic SEO a zero-sum game? Can everyone get with the program? What works, what doesn't work, and what to be wary of when doing programmatic SEO. And all-time SEO, all star and knowledge bomb dropper, Paul Andre De Vera will join us, share his tips on keeping things personal when working programmatically, and we'll dive into a special tool around programmatic SEO and beyond. As I already mentioned, Wix is Velo, and of course we have the snappiest of SEO News and who should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. So program, get your program here as episode number 39 of the SERP's Up podcast helps you get with the program, the programmatic SEO program that is. I went full on, I'm a vendor at a baseball stadium. Crystal Carter: Well, I mean, they're very good at their jobs. I do love that when they, the guy's got the train. They- Mordy Oberstein: Programs! Crystal Carter: Who wants? I'm like, yeah- Mordy Oberstein: Hear hear! At Bryant, that's like, we had our stand-up Brighten SEO. We were giving out beer. I'm like, this is a perfect time to be a baseball stadium and a beer here. They don't do that anymore. You have to go to the stands to get your, that was half the fun. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Guy walking around yelling, hotdog! And then you have to pass it through the row to the person who actually ordered the hotdog. So everyone's hands all over your hotdog. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's all very communal. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Crystal Carter: Very authentic. Sometimes you buy a thing just because of the experience. I used to go to green grocers and he just had platitudes for everything. I'd be like, oh, can I buy some grapes? He's like, all right, sweetheart, can I have some oranges? All right treacle. And what about some satsumas or something's like, oh, all right my pet. And I just kept buying things just to see if he ran out of stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Nice, nice. Crystal Carter: He never did. I don't know how, but yeah, I found it quite amusing. Mordy Oberstein: That is an amazing set. It's almost like Trader Joe's. When you go to Trader Joe's, they have a whole experience, ringing the bell, or wearing the pirate shirt. You go just for that. Crystal Carter: My Trader Joe's experience has never been like that. I've never worn a pirate shirt. Mordy Oberstein: No, I don't wear the pirate shirt, but they're wearing pirate shirts and stuff and Hawaiian shirts and pirate patches and all... It's all thematic at Trader Joe's. Crystal Carter: Thematic programmatic. What are we talking about today? Mordy Oberstein: Okay, so looking to create hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of pages of content that follow the same template or format? Then programmatic SEO might for you. It also might not be for you, but we'll get to that in due course. So programmatic SEO, if I had to define it while standing on one foot, should I stand on, I will stand on one foot. I'm sitting down. I don't know how to do that. It's when you pull data or content in from a database into a content template, and then by natural result you have a heap of pages for your website. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: While some would argue that e-com, Kevin Indig, isn't a case for programmatic SEO, I would perhaps argue and say that it is a really easy case to point to about using programmatic SEO wisely. You pull things in like the product name, the description, which you can use for your title tag and meta description respectively as well, and all the naming from the inventory database. And you plug that in with your usual shipping and return policies you have on every page. And you basically have spun up programmatic content for who knows how many number of product pages without actually typing a single word. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: That's programmatic. I feel like some will disagree. Crystal Carter: There's a lot of people who are using this for e-commerce, incredibly, incredibly productively. Wayfair is someone who used programmatic SEO and has used some of Google's own tools for some of them work in there and they're crushing it. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Hey, look. It works and it's good. Crystal Carter: I think it's entirely the kind of thing where you have something that has a lot of attributes, that has a lot of structured data, has a lot of things. For instance, if you think about a sofa, you're going to talk about the material. You're going to talk about how many seats it has. You're going to talk about whether it reclines, whether it has Bluetooth. I saw a sofa with Bluetooth- Mordy Oberstein: No. We were just shopping for a new sofa. Our children have destroyed it. And we had it for 16 years. I love it. It's great. I'm going to keep it, but not in the living room because I can't part with it. Crystal Carter: That's such a dad thing to do. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. And there's like all these, I just want a sofa. And it's so much stuff. Sorry, sidetrack. Crystal Carter: Right. But I think when you have a product that has lots of attributes, and particularly if you're thinking about something like Google Merchant Center encourages you, it requires you to add in all of those attributes to your data sets, to the information that you have about your products anyway. So it makes sense to take that data, take those attributes, take that information and use it to generate content in a programmatic way. And so e-commerce is absolutely perfect for this. And it also means that you're much more consistent with your product pages when you're creating your product pages so that everything has the same information- Mordy Oberstein: Which makes making changes and fixing things. And it's also easier. So just one last point before we actually dive into the thick of it. Often is what I think separates our programmatic SEO as a content strategy from regular traditional SEO is that often when you're doing this, your goal is not to rank well for a specific page or specific keyword word, but to spin up so much content that it doesn't really matter. That if you have a hundred thousand pages ranking nine or 10 on the SERP, you'll get all of that same kind of traffic or the amount of traffic that you would've had if you were ranking number one with a far fewer pages kind of thing. So that's of course is kind of tricky from a strategic point of view. And all of the metrics might not be the same or as important when you're working programmatically and dynamically. So that's another thing to kind of keep in mind. But that's sort of the general gist on programmatic SEO. I for one, just going to say this at the onset. I'm a bit of a programmatic SEO, curmudgeon, even though I do think it's a great place to test things, but that's just me. Crystal, what about you? Crystal Carter: I think that it gives you the opportunity to serve content for really long tail keywords. This is something that Miriam Myriam Jessier talks about in one of the articles that we have on the SEO hub. And because you're able to use the information about your products, the entities associated with your products, the keywords associated with your products as fodder for content creation in a programmatic way, it's easy to spin up very long tail, very specific keyword categories or category pages or product pages for specific things. And so I think programmatic SEO is great when it solves a problem. Like any SEO. All of the SEO that you're doing is all about adding value for users. That's at the end of the day, adding value for users. And Google's measuring whether or not you're adding value for users. So when they ranking, that's a reflection of the value that they can ascertain that you add for users. So Etsy does this programmatic SEO, Wayfair I mentioned as well. If you're able to drill down into those Etsy keywords, gold earrings with leopard print trim in a hoop shape, and I'm looking specifically for those things, or shoes in this size and this color of this thing. And I'm able to drill all the way down and not have to filter through all of your pages and not have to navigate to everything, but to get exactly what I want from the SERP, then absolutely that's where programmatic SEO wins. And I think that that's where programmatic SEO really, really succeeds. Mordy Oberstein: So let me ask, when would you specifically recommend or not recommend programmatic SEO? Crystal Carter: If you have a large amount of content and you have a large number of products, and also if you have the tooling to do so, as well and to maintain it, I think also a lot of businesses that are working in a sort of high product turnover, like fast moving consumer goods space, they're going to need to do that because they need to be able to spin up content straight away so that they can sort of say, let's capitalize on say a trend that's happening straight away, or let's take this massive catalog. Because I've worked in, I previously worked for a toy manufacturer and we had all of our products, that we manufactured and we had the one, all these giant spreadsheets and all of that sort of stuff. And if you are trying to manually implement making all these changes to every particular product, then it's impossible. It is an impossible task. So when you have a big product set, then programmatic SEO is a fantastic one. Also, if it's something that you're seeing that your competitors are doing, and you might want to think, I need to keep pace because this is what consumers are going to be expecting to see. So it's always important to think about not just how people are searching on your site or how people are arriving on your site, but how the wider ecosystem is also experiencing a search. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great point because it doesn't, first up, doesn't have to be zero-sum. It doesn't mean I only doing programmatic SEO. If you see that competitors doing it for certain types of keywords, certain types of pages or whatever it is, and you can do that for that. And if you want to take a demonstrate for different pages, you can do that for that. You could also programmatically build on certain elements of a page. Why wouldn't you? For example, on the e-comm side. Let's say for whatever reason you want to write custom descriptions. God bless. The shipping and the return policy. If you're not just reusing that on every page programmatically, I don't know why you wouldn't, for example. So that's a very hyperbolic example, but it's not zero-sum. You can use programmatic SEO in certain places on your website. You can programmatically build certain parts of the page. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. But I will say, the way I think about it as well, going back to my point of being an SEO curmudgeon about programmatic SEO is I kind of view it AI. AI generated content. It's very, very similar in my mind because you're talking about the possibility of running into creating a lot of low quality content. Or a lot of un-targeted content. And I feel like sometimes you do need to be careful. Cases where the language structure does matter. So for example, in the product review space. To programmatically build out product review pages, if you're a website that has, that's your whole thing, you're like a CNET and you're programmatically just like you're taking certain inputs, taking output certain inputs and creating pros and cons list out of them whatever you're doing. I think that's going to be a space where you have to be careful. Where you might build it out programmatically, but somehow supplement it at the same time. Crystal Carter: Yeah, yeah. I think that goes back to your point of having a mix of programmatic content and I guess more manually created content. But I think that essentially we're working in a space where a lot of times we have massive data sets that we're trying to wrangle both from an SEO point of view, but also from a sort of just general marketing point of view. And I think that the efficiency that the programmatic SEO potentially combined with it, because this is the other thing that a lot of people are combining programmatic SEO and AI content, particularly for content generation. So for instance, you would say, I have a product with this attribute, this attribute, that attribute and that attribute. And then it'll write a product description for that particular, then you can use generative AI to write a product description for that content. And that is something that is going to be saving a lot of time. And also, again, producing a lot of consistency with those things. Though again, as we have with any AI thing, editing is key and QA is crucial. So checking over those things and making sure that you're not publishing things, that AI generated content that isn't accurate and making sure that you've trained your prompts so that they accurately reflect what your products do, how they work. So I think that we did a webinar on chat GPT and AI writers and how to use them. And one of the really good examples that Ross Hudgins showed was giving a generative tool, a dataset, for instance, say a product dataset and asking them to create a piece of copy based on that. And I think that if you're able to figure out the best prompt that works for your type of data set, then that can help you to scale content very quickly. So I think that it can help you to, could connect with niches really quickly. It can help you to spin up a lot of things. But also I think from a programmatic point of view, if you're talking about thin content, or maybe not necessarily low quality content, but maybe sort of fairly repetitive content, and Google talks about this, they show a case study for Wayfair, for instance, about this, for ads. So for instance, if you're a locksmith and you're working generally in New York, you might want a PPC landing page that's locksmith for the Bronx, locksmith for Brooklyn, locksmith for Westchester, locksmith, for Manhattan, for Harlem, for wherever. And spinning those out programmatically? Yeah, brilliant, because you're not indexing them anyway and you just need them to match what the query is that you're serving for your ads. And this is something that Google is advertising on their Think With Google, there's a great Think With Google example- Mordy Oberstein: Oh, on the ads side. It makes absolute total sense to do that. And even on the SEO side, a lot of it's the same thing. If it's a local pages go, most of that page's content is going to be very, very, very similar. And it's a matter of going in and changing a couple things around here and there and make it a little bit better and unique then do that. One of the other things that kind of touch on, something you were talking about that I wanted to quickly bring up is that when you do this, it's a great environment to test things. So if you want to have a certain way of constructing the page or certain type of description, it's a way of figuring out what really works, what doesn't work. Because you're working with A, a huge amount of page, so the data you're going to get back is going to be way more accurate than, oh, I have a couple of pages made a title tag change here. Is that really, so you are in an environment that already lends itself the testing where the results are way more accurate equals make those changes much quicker and it helps you drive. Okay. Here's how I think Google's kind of understanding me, which is kind of what Colt did in the post that we mentioned before. He spun up a website programmatically and he wanted with the idea of seeing, okay, what sticks? How is Google understanding this content and is this the right way to go with it or is it not the right way to go? So he spun up the programmatic content as a way of seeing what direction to take the final draft, which I thought was really interesting. Crystal Carter: Yeah, yeah. Testing is absolutely crucial because Google will very often look at pages as a page type. So for instance, if you see a search console error, they will say, here's an example of a page like this. If you have 45,000 product pages, they're not going to show you the error for every single, the in-detail for every single product page. But they'll say, here's an example of one that you have. And then you can look at that. And so if you submit it up programmatically, then the fix, you might make a big mistake at once, but you can also make a big fix at once. That's really useful to being able to test that. And also, if you've ever done CRO testing, one of the things that can sometimes be a challenge, particularly when you're doing one page at a time, is actually getting the traffic volume to get any kind of data that's of any use. So if you're spinning up, many many pages have the same basic format, the same kind of iterations in terms of your CRO, then you're going to be able to get a lot more data more quickly than if you were to do it one page at a time. I think one of the other benefit, I can't remember if Colt touched on this as well, but one of the other benefits of programmatic SEO is that it's really easy to align it with things like schema markup, for instance. So I'm think I've mentioned them before, but I remember I judged as a search award and one of the entries was from Dairy Queen. And one of the things I love, they spun up all of these and they programmatically did this. They spun up all of these pages for their Dairy Queen locations and it has all of the attributes and they're aligned with the things that are on Google business profile. They're aligned with the things that are in their structured data and they're aligned with the things that are on their page. And so you can see that consistency going all the way through, what the hours are, where the location is, what the amenities are, whether they have delivery or pickup, or whether they accept credit cards and all of that sort of stuff. So they're able to spin those all up and they're also able to roll them all out to multiple channels. So you get all your pages that are marked up in the same way, and you have all the schema that works with all of those. And then you have all of those are also attributed to each of those Google business profiles. So what you get with programmatic SEO is the ability to use your content as a data set and to be able to use it consistently across multiple channels, which is epic. Mordy Oberstein: So taking into a completely different direction, going back to what we were talking about before about trying to add a personal touch, all your programmatic content to help us with that is the host of the SEO Video Show great YouTube show. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: At SEO. Knowledge Bombs. Crystal Carter: Fantastic. Mordy Oberstein: It's fantastic. Here's Paul Andre De Vera about when working with content at scale, how do you ensure you keep the right tone and personal touch with your content? Paul Andre De Vera: Maintaining a personal touch in your content is important to building a strong personal brand voice and establishing connection with your audience. One effective way I achieve this is by writing the way I speak. Recording yourself, taking and getting it transcribed can be an awesome exercise to help you capture your personal tone and language. You can then use transcriptions as a basis for your content, editing and refining it as needed to make sure it meets your personal language and fits within the context of your content strategy. However, when working with tools like Grammarly, it's important not to accept every suggestion blindly. These tools can help identify and correct grammar and spelling errors, and they may also try to substitute words and phrases that are part of your natural speaking style. I personally like using words such as, awesome, love it, fabulous. These are examples of words that Grammarly may flag, but is part of my personal language. Incorporating personal touches like these can help your content feel more genuine and relatable to your audience, building a stronger connection and establishing your brand as approachable and authentic. Just be your silly self consistently online just as you are offline. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Paul. Definitely. Again, check out Paul on Twitter at Paul Andre and check out the SEO Video Show Crystal Carter: On YouTube. Mordy Oberstein: On YouTube. Look, by the way, his point about Grammarly. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: I feel that in every bone of my body. Crystal Carter: Yo. Mordy Oberstein: Because sometimes it's like, change this change. I'm like, no. Crystal Carter: No. Mordy Oberstein: No. Crystal Carter: No. I'm not changing that. Mordy Oberstein: Not changing that. That's a whole linchpin. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Like Grammarly, that's my vibes. That's just my style. That's how I do it. Also with Grammarly, it's obviously they're making it so they and talk about Grammarly all the time. But I remember reading, I'm sure I mentioned this before Toni Morrison had a book and she just, she's, it was one sentence for the whole page and it was beautiful and it was fantastic. But I also say, and and and and and. And sometimes I'm trying to get some rhythm. Mordy Oberstein: Like, like, like, like. Crystal Carter: I do say like. Mordy Oberstein: I'm talking about myself. I say it all the time. Crystal Carter: I'm from California. That's how we do... it is what it is. But I think that, yeah, what he's saying about adding in, making sure that you keep your tone of voice is really important. I think about brands that have a tone and it's really important. So for instance, MailChimp has a tone that they just sort of have a tone, even when it's a small little piece of micro copy, there's definitely a tone of voice to it. There's a couple of other brands that I can think of that are a little bit, there's brands that are a little bit salty sometimes. So the- Mordy Oberstein: Wendy's? Crystal Carter: Duolingo can be a little bit salty sometimes. Duolingo has a very dry sense of humor as a brand, and that's kind of their style. And even sometimes to the point where you can recognize the style, you can recognize someone from their styles. And I think with some of the AI things, like Google I/O thing announced that Google Cloud is making it so that you can use your own data sets to train information. So it might be that you add your language style guide into something to maybe move that into programmatic SEO. There's a lot of moving parts going on at the moment, but I think that making sure that you've got your clear tone of voice when you're spinning things up programmatically is, yeah, really important. Mordy Oberstein: Super important. This again, it tells all the time, and I like my soapbox where brand marketing overlaps with SEO, it's such an under discussed undervalued point. And it's something that I know we talk about, you need to align with your designers and your devs, but a lot of times you need to align more with your brand marketers because they're the ones defining how you're going to have to speak publicly. And if they see the programmatic content and they see that it's not in line with the brand tone of voice, they're not going to be happy. So better get that done beforehand as opposed to after hand, which is, I know not a word, but it definitely- Crystal Carter: After hand? Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Why would you say beforehand and then after the fact? Makes no sense. Let's be- Crystal Carter: Should it be before fact and- Mordy Oberstein: It should either be before fact or it should be after hand. Crystal Carter: After... Nobody's saying after hand, it's- Mordy Oberstein: Now we are. Crystal Carter: Stop trying to make fetch happen. Mordy Oberstein: So anyway, after hand that, speaking of programmatic content and SEO, we already mentioned cold sliver and how we use a combination of Python and a little tool we call Velo to dynamically create pages at scale. So we figured we jump into this fellow called Velo with a programmatic edition of Tool Time. Velo is a full stack dev tool inbuilt into Wix. So you can enable dev mode, which by the way, Phil should be getting a Mortal Combat... Enable dev mode. Crystal Carter: We should talk to the team and be like, what we need is an explosion though. It goes... Dev mode. Mordy Oberstein: And just like a firebomb goes off on the page. Crystal Carter: Instead of deploying, you should just go finish him. Mordy Oberstein: Dev mode activated. Finish him. Crystal Carter: And then when you run your code, it should go ….. Mordy Oberstein: I'll see if we can add to the roadmap. Crystal Carter: Okay, I'll do that. I'll do that. Mordy Oberstein: I'll advocate. This is why we advocate very much a lot internally. Crystal Carter: Yes. Mordy Oberstein: I feel we should add this to our list of things to advocate for. Crystal Carter: Dev mode. Mordy Oberstein: Activate it. Okay. So yeah, back on track. Velo. Crystal Carter: Yeah. So Velo. So Velo, I love Velo. I love Velo so much. Velo is absolutely brilliant. It is a JavaScript like playground essentially within Wix. And you can build JavaScript things all the way through it. And there's lots of fantastic stuff. So we have something called the content manager, and essentially you can take a spreadsheet, it's a spreadsheet sort of format, and it works really well for programmatic- Mordy Oberstein: Programmatic SEO. Because you're connected to a data set and there's your content. Crystal Carter: You can also connect to external datasets, you can add your own datasets, you can connect to other databases as well. And there's lots of tools for Tree to be able to do that. And basically you can use it for, you can use it with JavaScript to create all sorts of fantastic things. So Mark Preston is somebody who created an SEO jobs board, for instance, using Velo. And so you're able to create tools there. And I've also created a few tools myself. I created a Bingo game on my website. Mordy Oberstein: Did you really? You used it to get a Bingo game. I did not know that. How did I not know that? Crystal Carter: I need a bingo game for, it's like a conference SEO bingo game. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, that's right, you did. I do remember that. Okay, fine. I'm not a horrible friend. Crystal Carter: So the other thing that's great about Velo is that Velo has, so you might say, well, but I'm not a JavaScript person. I don't know all the things. That's okay. Because first of all, our documentation is extremely extensive. Second of all, within Velo, they have tons of guidance in the actual code. So if you input the code incorrectly, it will tell you. It will give you an error or it'll give you a little thing that says, hey, you should have this, or there should be a variable, or you should update that part. So that's really useful. The other thing that's great is that you can use it with an LOM. So for instance, Bard. Bard is trained on loads of bits of code, so is Chat GPT. So I have, I've created something and my JavaScript is, okay. And that's generous. My JavaScript is okay. But I was able to go, I was basically able to take some of the guidance that I got from Velo. So Velo says, oh, this bit of code isn't quite right. And I'm like, okay. So I popped that into GPT and I was like, hey, GPT, I got this error for this code, but I wanted to do this. And GPT was like, yeah, try this bit of code. So then I popped it back into Velo and then I got a different error and then I put that back into GPT, and by the time I'd gone back and forth between these two things, I was able to build something that was amazing. So what's really cool is that we have... It's got so many different functionalities in it. There's something called Velo Examples, which is a collection of lots of really cool things that people have built on Velo. And on each of those pages there is, there's the code, there's a demo, and you can copy the code from it. The other thing that's great about Velo is that the code is transferable. So for instance, we have lots, it's all sort of API based, and we have a library that's Wix SEO. So if you have a piece of code that is for changing the canonical, we had this situation, didn't we Mordy? Mordy, you were like, oh- Mordy Oberstein: A bomb, A podcast website. Yeah. Crystal Carter: Somebody was like, oh, I want to change the canonical on this podcast change. I was like, oh, you can do this. He was like, oh, maybe you can set up a call. I was like, no, literally just copy and paste this code. Mordy Oberstein: The code, yeah. Crystal Carter: Copy and paste this code and put it on that page and it will work because it's all sort of set up to work. Mordy Oberstein: You could do that dynamically. You could dynamically as structured data to whatever you want, kind of set up pages, you want to do it. There's so much you can do with it. Crystal Carter: And you can create your own variable. So if you have a piece of content on your page, let's say you've got the word or something, you can create a variable. You can name that variable, you can use that variable in your code further down. We also have connections into NPM. So there's like lots of API integrations that are built in Google sheets and Google Maps, for instance. But you can also connect into NPM. I literally love Velo. The team behind Velo have nurtured this and have spent so much time making it fantastic. Mordy Oberstein: And there's so much content, by the way. If you, we'll link to a bunch of it. But there's an endless amount of content they've put out there... It's a cavernous library of content Velo, which we'll link to it. It's awesome. Crystal Carter: And I think the thing that's great is working with those things, but also, particularly if you're a noob, like me, to JavaScript, is that the things like GPT, like Bard that are trained on code, you can say in JavaScript, how do I do this? So if there's something that's specific, you can also back up some of the things with general information about JavaScript and things like that. So it's fantastic. And it also opens up a whole world of functionality on Wix, and I think it's going to be fantastic as we go into the headless space. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I was going to say it. It's perfect. Because we've just gotten headless for this. For example, the CMS that you just mentioned. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: You can use that. It's headless. You can take that and you can plug that into your front end, and you can use the Wix function, that CMS functionality kind of wherever. Crystal Carter: And the things that with the headless Wix situation, a lot of the things that they leaned on in the first instance are particularly lean themselves to programmatic SEO and programmatic data creation. So for instance, like the events, the bookings- Mordy Oberstein: Booking, products... Crystal Carter: Products, all of that sort of stuff, it leans itself really well... Lends itself really well to that. So between the headless space and the Velo and all of the amazing functionalities- Mordy Oberstein: There's a lot of automation you could be doing. Crystal Carter: A lot of stuff you can do. I mean, who even needs to touch it? Mordy Oberstein: Who needs humans anymore? Crystal Carter: But I think it's really great, and I think it's great to see the combination of opening up the platform more and also bringing in some of the AI elements that we have and making it really accessible to lots of different developers and lots of different development needs. Mordy Oberstein: It's really cutting edge stuff from really great people. Now you know what else is new? The actual news. So here's this week's Snappy News. Snappy news, two little juicy SEO tidbits for you this week. First up, as reported from Matt Southern over at Search Engine Journal, Neva, the ad free search engine announces closure. Neva was built, by the way, as a sort of a way to downplay the role of ads and search and increase the role of content creators. It had an AI chat experience, and it had a pretty good little search engine. Unfortunately will be shuttered, which is very unfortunate. You never want to see anything fail. It was a nice idea. It really does though, kind of highlight how hard it is to compete with Google. So as you see things developing in the AI world and you see, oh, Google's going down... Take a deep breath, take pause. It is very hard to compete with Google. From his royal Rustiness, the king of bricks, Mr. Rusty Brick, AKA Barry Schwartz, the fourth. Google helpful content update can demote and now promote content. As you may know, and as we've talked about here on this very podcast, Google announced that the helpful content update will be getting a revamp. This was announced at Google I/O 2023. In specific, Google said the system would help identify "hidden gems". Seeing this, friend of the show, an avid Yankees fan, Glen Gabe, asked Google search liaison Denny Sullivan, if this was an update to the current functioning of the ranking system or a new ability altogether. Denny said, "The helpful content system will be working to identify and show more hidden gems on search, along with still working to ensure unhelpful content is not performing well." So in a nutshell, the helpful content update will not only be about hitting sites with low quality, but will now have a net positive impact of uplifting the hidden gems of the web. I feel like there should be a special badge if you are one of these hidden gems of the web that says, hidden gem of the web, you could plaster on your homepage. And that is this week's Snappy News. I just got to say, I just love by the way, that when the news happens so organically like that, in this case, Glen Gabe asking a question, Barry covering it. They're great people, Glen and Barry. Speaking of people, by the way, that brings us to our follow of the week, which is, we've already mentioned him three or four times at this point. He is Glassdoor's, SEO, former member of the Wix SEO Advisory Board. He's a writer for the Web Almanac. He's Colt Sliva. Crystal Carter: He's such a nice guy. He's so smart. Mordy Oberstein: The nicest dude, right? Crystal Carter: So nice. Mordy Oberstein: The nicest guy. Crystal Carter: And so smart. I think the first time that I came across Colt was he was speaking at SMX about something very clever, and I remember watching the talk and I was like- Mordy Oberstein: It was very clever. Crystal Carter: I remember watching him. I was like, this guy knows stuff. This guy is so smart. Mordy Oberstein: I came across him the first time at, when he was at IOL rank, we were working Gareth Sussman. I think he was on my podcast I was doing at the time. I don't remember anything about- Crystal Carter: Probably. Mordy Oberstein: Probably. Crystal Carter: Probably. Mordy Oberstein: The smartest guy, the nicest guy. I worked with him obviously on the Wix SEO advisory board, but also we worked together on the SEO section, on the web almanac. He was such a resource. I will tell you right now that Web Almanac, or at least the SEO section, would not have happened if it weren't for Colt. Crystal Carter: The other thing I would say about Colt is that he has such a healthy curiosity and people say, oh, what do you need to be in SEO? Like, do you need this skill or that skill or that skill. I'm like, fundamentally, you need to be curious. You need to be the kind of person who would talk about- Mordy Oberstein: John Mueller. Crystal Carter: Yeah, you need to be the kind of person who wants to go down the rabbit hole who wants, hears like, oh, there's a new toilet. They're like, what does it do? What happens if I do this? What if I do that? What if I look at this? Mordy Oberstein: You change the JavaScript around on the toilet, what happens? Crystal Carter: Exactly. And Colt, he likes to build things. He likes to explore things, and he's super approachable and super interested. So yeah, can't say nice enough things about Colt, like do follow Colt. Mordy Oberstein: Don't just follow Colt, interact with Colt, talk to Colt. Crystal Carter: Tell him that we sent you. Tell him that Mordy and Crystal sent you. Mordy Oberstein: Talk to him. He's on Twitter at, S I G N O R C O L T. Of course, we'll link to his Twitter profile in the show notes because I don't expect you remember how to spell that by listening to this in your car. But that does bring us to the end of the podcast. I would programmatically end the podcast now. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: But I don't know how to do that with my VO. I guess I could record an ending and plug that in every single time, but I feel like that would not be doing justice to the audience and to the podcast. Crystal Carter: Yeah, well, you know... Mordy Oberstein: Not a good use of programmatic. Crystal Carter: No, I don't think so. No, not on this particular occasion. Mordy Oberstein: Okay, fine. Crystal Carter: You betcha. Mordy Oberstein: Here's the custom ending. Thank you for joining us on the SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with an all new episode as we dive into how to get started with international SEO as we chat with drum roll, Aleyda Solis. Look for wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix SEO learning lab over at www.com/seo/learn. Looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content and webinars on the Wix SEO learning lab at you guessed it. wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Until next time, peace, love and SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

Whether you’re ready or not Google’s GA4 is rolling out this July and UA will be sunsetted. Jill Quick, an analytics consultant, and trainer for The Coloring In Department, joins us as a special guest host to help us get a better grasp of GA4. Join us as Jill sits down with hosts Crystal Carter and Mordy Oberstein to discuss what SEOs need to know about the new GA4. From how the data in GA4 differs from UA to the mindset GA4 demands - you don’t want to miss this one if you plan on continuing to use Google Analytics past July 2023. With all the talk of analytics, Crystal, and Mordy will help you explore how much “analytics” are actually useful so that you don’t overwhelm yourself out of the gate. Listen in to learn the differences between UA and GA4 and more in episode 30 of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast. Back Get ready for GA4 Whether you’re ready or not Google’s GA4 is rolling out this July and UA will be sunsetted. Jill Quick, an analytics consultant, and trainer for The Coloring In Department, joins us as a special guest host to help us get a better grasp of GA4. Join us as Jill sits down with hosts Crystal Carter and Mordy Oberstein to discuss what SEOs need to know about the new GA4. From how the data in GA4 differs from UA to the mindset GA4 demands - you don’t want to miss this one if you plan on continuing to use Google Analytics past July 2023. With all the talk of analytics, Crystal, and Mordy will help you explore how much “analytics” are actually useful so that you don’t overwhelm yourself out of the gate. Listen in to learn the differences between UA and GA4 and more in episode 30 of the SERP’s Up SEO Podcast. Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 30 | March 22, 2023 | 52 MIN 00:00 / 51:44 This week’s guests Jill Quick Jill Quick is an analytics consultant and trainer and has been working in digital marketing for a very long time. She helps brands get the most out of their measurement strategy through training, reviews, and audits, to troubleshooting and consulting. She works with small startup founders, agencies, and brands you own in your home. She has a knack for creating guided, practical, step-by-step, paint-by-numbers style templates to get you where you need to be, faster. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha. Mahalo for joining us for SERP's Up podcast. We're pushing out groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the head of SEO branding here at Wix.com, joined by the fantastic, the amazing, the person without any musical references this week, head of SEO communications, Crystal Carter. Crystal Carter: How do you dooby-dooby-doo? Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: I feel like I’m on Scooby Doo now. Hey Scooby. Crystal Carter: This show is not about scatting, it's about Google Analytics. That's what we're going to talk about. But thank you for that lovely introduction there, Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: It's my pleasure. And speaking of Google Analytics, the SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can easily create a connection to GA4 and have your site or even upgrade your site from UA to GA4 with the Google Analytics, Wix marketing integration right there inside of our marketing integrations where you can easily set your site up with Google Analytics, walks you right through the whole process. So isn't that great? Because today we're talking about GA4, which Crystal already said so redundant. Canonical backdoor, Crystal said it before, SEO jokes. Crystal Carter: Yeah, so today we're talking about GA4. Why are we talking about GA4, Mordy? Why? Mordy Oberstein: Oh, because they're coming for your data, hide your kids. That's right. They're coming for your kids and there is no hiding because the boogeyman is coming for your data. Your UA data. Well, it's not a boogeyman, it's Google, and they're changing your analytics to conform to the new web. So they're moving over from Universal Analytics to GA4. Either way, scare mongering aside, just for a minute, we'll get back to scare mongering later. If you're used to Google Analytics as you know it now, you can kiss it goodbye as GA4 is just around the corner. We have analytics maven and consultant and trainer over at the Coloring in Department, Jill Quick will join us as a guest host to help us make sense of GA4. Thank God someone's going to be here to help us and make sense out of this thing. Also, crystal and I will take a little bit of a deep dive down the analytics rabbit hole. We have a deep thought moment about how many of those darn analytics data points do you really need? And of course we have the snappiest SEO news for you and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. Let's get right to the point, the data point, as episode number 30 of the SERP's Up podcast enters the final analysis, or should I say the final analytics analysis or should I say the final UA analytics analysis? Either way, take it away, Crystal. Crystal Carter: Yes. So today we're talking about GA4, Google Analytics for the fourth iteration of Google Analytics. That's what we're talking about. And the reason why we're talking about it is because the end is nine, it's coming. It's coming whether we like it or not, it is coming. And a lot of people have said that they do not like it. However, it has improved since they said that it was coming. So basically if we think about the timeline, they launched the beta for GA4 in 2019. Then in 2020 they announced the official release. Then in 2022, they announced that there was a deprecation date for UA because until that point, everyone had been pretty much with the exception of fine analytics professionals like Jill had been sort of burying their heads in the sand around GA4. And then after that point people started going, "oh my gosh, yeah, maybe we actually should deal with this". And then deadline for deprecation in June 2022, and then they finally gave us the full deprecation date, which is the 1st of July 2023, which is not that long from right now. If you look at your calendar and if you look up and you haven't done anything with regards to GA4, that is one of the reasons why we are bringing this up because it is time to take your head out of the sand. It is time to step into the light, face the music as it were, and to get involved with GA4. There was a recent email that came around that said that Google was going to migrate it for you if you didn't do it yourself. And this is something that we think that you should probably do that yourself if you can. I'm sure Jill will get into that a little bit more. But that's why we're talking about it. It's super important. And whether you are really into your analytics or not, the team that runs your marketing is almost certainly relying on quality analytics from UA or from a tool that is using UA backed data. So this is something that you should be thinking about and something that you should definitely make sure that your team is covered by because they also announced that at a certain point, you won't even be able to see or get access to that data. So this is something that you should be thinking about and this is the reason why we have Jill here and we are so grateful for Jill to be here to shed some light. I've seen Jill speak on this topic and I found it incredibly illuminating. So we're pleased to have Jill here. Mordy Oberstein: Hi, Jill. Jill Quick: Hi. I've never been called a maven before. I kind of like it. Crystal Carter: I feel like it suits you. Mordy Oberstein: I try to switch things up a little on people in the intros. I try to make it unique, although Crystal's is pretty much the same every week. Crystal Carter: He just throws compliments at me, which I'm not mad at. Mordy Oberstein: Like Rose is at your feet. Crystal Carter: It's fine. Mordy Oberstein: But first off, do you hear that sound? That's me slowly taking my head out of the sand, just so you know. I guess I want to know, Jill, just top level, what's the difference between Universal Analytics, the Google Analytics we're all very fond of and used to and GA4? Jill Quick: So I am going to use my little analogy of methods of transportation because I know Crystal seen it. Mordy, you've heard it. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Jill Quick: Listeners, you might be bored of me talking about this, but here we go. For those of you that are new with it, the way that I like to think of the journey that analytics has been on is that if analytics was a mode of transportation, then the first version that we got, GA1, if we're going to call it, that was Urchin around about 2005. And that was a bike. And I am old enough to remember hit counters and other weird and wonderful things from the very early days of the worldwide web marketing. So we were honestly delighted when we started to get Urchin and it was free and it was really popular. And actually... And we'll come back to this point about servers. I'm going to put a pin in that thought later. I don't think Google expected it to be as popular as it became and it swelled and we wanted more. And then we had an upgrade with Classic analytics around about 2007, and that was getting rid of the bike and giving you a moped, a scooter. So we had a little bit more with our data. We got a new user interface. And I'm saying this because we have gone through multiple interface changes. We've just forgotten because it was so long ago. Now, Universal Analytics, where Mordy's super comfortable at the moment... Mordy Oberstein: Very comfortable. Jill Quick: Yeah, this was 2011, 2012, and it is the equivalent of getting rid of the moped and the bike and giving us the keys to our very own universal analytics car. Now, majority of people, we've had this car for over 10 years and you've either been the driver, the passenger, the engineer, I have met people that don't even know where the car is parked or who has the key. We like the car, we know the car, it's comfortable. And again, it was free and you just kind of started a job. They gave you access and you drove away and got what you needed from it. With the transition to GA4, as Crystal mentioned, we had the very... Not necessarily best name of app and web, and then they rebranded it to GA4 is the fourth version of that analytics platform. And despite Google saying it's an upgrade and it is an upgrade, but it's not an upgrade as in get rid of my crappy old card that could do with a wash and some reupholstering and give me a new one. They're taking away the car, setting it on fire this year, so we can't have it anymore. And they've given us the keys to a helicopter. That is the equivalent shift that we have. And that's where I think, and I've been in the same bucket when they announced this, it was like, not now Google. It's the pandemic. I'm teaching my kids, we’re going to get the plague not now. Read the room. We don't want to be doing any of this. And there are lots of people that, and I'm sure some people are still in this bucket, they log into GA4 and they're like, what is going on? Where are the things? Because you are used to a car and the steering wheel and the dashboard and you've now got a gear stick and there's toggles that are above your head now, and it's just really not that familiar. And I know that there's a lot of people, as I said, they love the car, they're happy with the car, but with GA4, there are some similarities. Both of them have doors and seat belts and windows, but it is a completely different data model. And if you're trying to get GA4 to do what GA3 did, you're going to be disappointed. You can't make the helicopter a car. The car can't be a helicopter. They're similar, but they can't interlink with each other. So going into what the data models are, we'll think about this as the engines of these methods of analytics, transportation, the data model of universal analytics was a hit based model that ran on users and hopefully they had multiple sessions and anytime they did anything on that website, a hit was fired, A page view was loaded, PDF downloaded, bought a product, filled out a form, that kind of thing. When it comes to the data model of GA4, because it's an adaptation of Firebase, which was the product for app and web and rebranded to GA4, they have adopted that Firebase model. So they're moving away from this hit based model towards a user and event data model. And events are slightly different to events in GA3. And we can go through that unless there's a talking point on here what those different events are. Mordy Oberstein: If you gave me the keys to a helicopter right now, I will tell you exactly what I'll do with the helicopter. I'll crash that thing so hard into a cliff between a hot fiery mess, which is exactly what's happening to me in GA4, not because I don't think I understand... I think I understand what I'm looking at once I find it. I'm just having... On that car, you said, I know where all the buttons are, I feel like I'm in the cockpit. Forget a helicopter, of a 747 and there's all the switches and I don't even know where to go to find the data because GA3 or Universal Analytics, it was to me at least so simple, it's on the left-hand nav. When you go into the report, you see, okay, I can switch the medium, I can switch this metric, I can add a secondary metric. God, I can compare periods. God, it's all uniform across the board. But I feel like when I go into GA4, at one place that functions this way, at one place it functions that way. In one place that functions like this and it feels like it's a hot mess. Jill Quick: I would say that the data story is still pretty similar. So there are four different reporting areas in GA4. One of them is the reports, the standard aggregate. You have that data for as long as you're tracking reports. And in that life cycle you've still got acquisition. How do people find you? Behavior, what did they do? Conversions, monetization, am I still in a job? And on the right-hand side, you've still got the date range. And I would point out with the date range actually, there's the ability to do a comparison between different dates and match the day of the week, which is really useful when you've got certain cyclical cycles that move around and you can still add secondary dimensions. It's just the layout's different, the buttons are different. I mean Google if you're listening, I love you. I do work in this all the time, but I don't think usability was a big thing and I don't think you've done a great job in communicating how to do it. Selling the helicopter's great. Oh, you can fly around and get loads of stuff and BigQuery and all this. It's like, no, no. Can you just go through a crash course for a better word of how to do it. Crystal Carter: I think one of the tricky things is that with UA, essentially, so all the things are on the side, it's really easy to browse and there was very much as a marketer and doing audits on sites, it would be very easy to sort of go log into an analytics account and just have a look around at various things. And sometimes I'd find stuff I wasn't even expecting to see because there was so much data there and I could see and I could compare and things like that. And the thing that I find really tricky about analytics, and I said they say, oh, you can build this, you can build that, but I'm like, I don't want to build it. Mordy Oberstein: Exactly. I want to go in there, I want to see what's there and have fun, look around and see... But I feel like in GA4 there is no looking around, unless I specifically said it, I do not see it. Crystal Carter: So what I'm asking is what's your advice for people who are used to browsing and to streamline the process of rebuilding or resetting some of the reports that they're used to or that they like or even that they see other people reporting on. Jill Quick: So GA4, the success of your GA4 implementation will come down to the quality of the events that you are tracking. And I think that's been the biggest flex that... You've still got dimensions and metrics. So that terminology and that language is still the same. However, pageview is now an event and pageview was an event in GA3. So if we do a couple of minutes on what is the difference between the data model. So Events in GA3, so if you heard the word events, you typically were thinking about the behavior reports and anything outside of a page view was loaded. If you wanted anything else to be tracked in GA3, in the car, you would have to send those as events in Google Tag Manager and you'd have. . . Crystal Carter: So you downloaded something or something like that. Jill Quick: Category was a big broad bouquet. Video, the action, the doing, play the video, pause the video, label gave context of the thing that they just did brings and repeat to all the things that you wanted to track for your measurement objectives. When it comes to GA4, everything is an event. They want it all lowercase and underscore like snake case because it's a computer program. So it likes things built that way so that everything works and you now have an event name, event parameters and then there'll be values assigned to those parameters. And the way that I have done training on this and the talks I've done and the audits that I do, I'd like to think of it as event DNA. So if you can picture in your mind now the old science lesson where you did that nice little helix string of a DNA sequence, imagine that's the events that you've got in your GA4 data stream. You would have an event name up to 25 parameters, so there's 25 nodes max, and the DNA is just going to dissolve and not work and there's a certain length that we can have with each of these parameters and the values. Now, out of these events in their DNA, they are grouped into what I like to call four parent categories. These parents are made up of event DNA and we've got the auto enhanced recommended and custom. So the automatic collected events are a bundle of events that you get when you say I'm going to have a GA4 instance and I'm going to put that configuration tag on and it's going to start collecting data that's going to give you information like the page location, session start, first visit, engagement, which is like time. Great. The enhanced measurement are additional events you get in your data stream so you can further tweak what you can get. That's going to have things like page view data. It's going to have files downloaded, site search, a really crappy named event called click. But that event click has a number of parameters like link URL, which is tracking all outbound links. And for most sites that's really useful because they're sending people to Glassdoor or TripAdvisor or review sites or Google Maps. It also tracks telephone numbers and email addresses because they're technically outbound links. So these were things that were actually quite hard to track in GA3 and I've done enough audits that there were always something wrong with somebody's account, but there's a lot that comes out of the box, but you just need to know these parent categories and what you get out of it. Recommended are a bunch of events that Google has given us a list basically. So sign up events, generate lead events or forms, purchase events, they've got some pre named ones and we want to use those so we can get more information into the reports because they're listening for these. And then you have custom, which is basically anything that doesn't fit in the previous three. So I did one recently which was a B2B company that had Calendly booking so that you could book an appointment with them. There isn't a recommended event for that, doesn't come out of the box in auto and enhance, so we'd have to track it. So we've got these four parent events and if you just look at the four parents when you log in to GA4, and I think this is where the frustration comes from, you go to events and you might have nine and an event count and it'll say like, "click, file download, scroll", and you are like, "but I want to know the page that they were on. I want to know the file that they downloaded". And you can add a secondary dimension and you can play around with that if you want. But there's another concept to get your head around, which is that you can create an event from an event. Now, if we go along with my little story here that we have our four parent categories all made up of event DNA, if I wanted to create a new event, I have to take the DNA from a parent. So I'm making a child. Now, for SEO listeners, you're familiar with this concept because you've got parent categories and subcategories, children that we like. You've got all that structure. So if I wanted to create a new event to make it easy for people to see that somebody clicked mordy@website.com , then I can go into the user interface, create a new event where I say, "please create me a child and I'd like to call this email_high and where the event name equals click and the parameter equals link_URL and the value of that is mordy@website.com . Please fire a new event called email_high" and then I've got that in my reports and I can report on it. So there's some tweaking we have to do within the user interface, but it's not obvious when you log in because there's no tool tip and Google just goes, "it's flexible, you can do anything". And people are like, "give me a fricking use case". And common ones are you'll probably want to create child events for the type of file that was downloaded, see the PDFs, the zips and the docs. You might want to break out those click events for outbound links to your review site, Google Maps, telephone numbers, email addresses. And when you start getting familiar with the events, the parameters, the parents and the children, it becomes easier to understand how do I go into the user interface and ask it? Because it's a different language, isn't it? It's like hieroglyphics almost when you first start because you are not familiar with what you need to do. And it reminds me, and I think I've had this conversation with both of you before, it reminds me when I remember people showing me WordPress websites and I was like, "oh wow, that's great". I'm like, "why does mine not look great? Why does mine go hello world and there's a crap at the site, like why?" And then somebody goes, "yeah, you got to think about your information architecture and your images and your placement". I was like, "I thought it was going to build it for me. I thought it was going to do the thing and I'm not..." and GA4 is a bit like that where you have to go, "oh, I've got to do some thinking". And that's the difference between getting the helicopter off the ground and driving away on the car that the car was pre-built. A lot of these things were already there and GA4 looks wonderful. There's some great things you could do, which we were talking about in a moment. But you've got to get your head around what is an event? What are they called? Because it's taken me some rewiring of my brain to go page_location when I'm like pages, all pages, why am I having to remember new things? So there's a lot of rewiring of the brain, I think, some neuroplasticity going on to make it a little bit easier. Crystal Carter: So on the plus side, I will say for Wix users who are listening, the team at Wix have worked with Google to create some preset events for certain Wix properties. So you should have a little bit of a headstart with regards to that. But I would also say what's interesting in the events thing is that I was following along while you were chatting and starts to make a lot more sense and there's two things that stood out to me was that I think a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people when they're talking about their reporting and how they set up their events and how they set up all of the different things using additional tools to help make it easier to understand. So I know a lot of people are using Looker Studio, I'd be interested to know what you think about that. The other thing that I think is interesting is that you talked about a few other third-party tools and you talked about people trying to square peg round hole, the old of universal analytics and I've definitely done cross domain tracking and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't make sense and I believe, and maybe you can shed some light on this as well, that cross domain tracking is a bit better. Jill Quick: Yeah, it's easier. Use the same measurement ID of your data stream. You've got to make sure you go in your admin settings and do the usual that you would have to do in things in Universal, configure your domains to say Google, it's this subdomain in this domain referral exclusions. Do not pat yourself on the back for traffic and they got all the credit for the conversions, the usual. But yeah, I have noticed that a bit like Mordy be like, "my head's out of the sand". I think I spoke to a lady last week and she went, "I'm in gone past the denial. I'm in the acceptance phase now. They're not changing the deadline. I'm going to have to do it". I'm like, "yeah, you are". And I think some of the other providers like there was... Had a client that's using Drift widget for their chat box and they just announced in February that they're now able to push those events with the measurement ID and I'm like, "yay, why have you done it so close to the deadline", Shopify, they're getting it done this month now in March. They're like, "yay, Shopify's going to be working". So I think maybe the slow adoption is because we've also been waiting for other tech stack support to help that migration because you're looking for the events and now Drift widget, if you've got the chat bot is going to push those events to you. I don't have to touch Google Tag Manager. If Shopify's doing it, great, I don't have to build loads of events for e-commerce if it's going to seamlessly push that in and going to your point on Looker, Looker's using the GA4 API, so it's only as good as your data collection. So yeah, use Looker, but if you haven't got the child events and the events and the other things you want to track that's useful to you, you are not going to get as much fun in those Looker reports because it's only as good as what you've got in that data collection. Mordy Oberstein: That's exactly the point. To me, that's exactly why one of the first things we did was automatically trigger those events in GA4. But it makes me wonder at the same time, from a business point of view, do you think that people like yourself are going to end up with a lot more clients who are... Let's say SEOs, whereas before in universal analytics, I never felt like, Hey, I need to go to an analytics expert. I have a general handle on this unless I come to a specific problem, which case I need to go to somebody one level up, but the way that Google construct this, are they... And I wonder if it's purposeful or not or whatever it is, are they creating a dynamic where professionals are now going to say, "you know what? Forget this. I am just going to sub this out to somebody else to handle". Jill Quick: Yeah. I think for people it might be for time they know enough to be dangerous but they haven't got the time to do it and they want to trust that somebody else is going to do that for them. I think that when it comes to why is Google doing this and I think there are a number of reasons. The way that GA3, the previous versions work don't really work with the way that it's going to be going in the future with cookies and consent mode and things like that. I think there's another part of me that I for fun was reading some of people's financial statements to see what they were doing and they were mentioning their servers and I'm like, "oh, I wonder why they're doing that?" And a hundred percent they're going to be taking all of the servers from the old Universal analytics when they've been it and they are going to be repurposed for service side tagging and BigQuery and all the other cloud stuff because that's really expensive. When it comes to putting investment into your analytics because it's been free for so long. I don't think people... And I've made a living out this for a decade, I've done hundreds of audits and there was always something wrong. There was always a... I've got a phrase I like to use, a confabulation of data, lies, you say, honestly because nobody goes, I'm going to tinker with my data and try and fake something for my boss. They think the data's solid because they didn't know how the data model worked and how the data got there. They just took it for granted and thought, "well, that's somebody else's problem". That leads into conversations of, well, who owns analytics? Is it dev? Is it your IT department? So it kind of just drifts around in a very ephemeral way and now people are having to put some time and money in some cases to get GA4 to work, but it's probably the first time they've had to really sit down and think, what are our measurement objectives? What is it that we're trying to do with this data? You don't want to have number soup and have reports for the sake of reporting. You want data so that it's going to give you an indication of what you should be doing with your strategy and tactics. And when you report to somebody, it's only really one or two people that get that report that can action it. Here's your purchase order, carry on, you are still in a job, that kind of thing. And when you narrow that down, it makes it a little bit better and more competitive in a way for that business owner because they've really considered what do they need and how are they going to get that data? I would say out of everybody using GA4, I reckon a good 10 million or so accounts will not move over to GA4, and that's not necessarily because they're not ready or they don't want it, they're just not going to use it. They're like, do you know what? I don't do a lot of marketing or we don't invest a lot, so I just want to know that the phone rings. People come into my shop kind of happy with that and they'll find as an analytics solution that fits those measurement objectives. The people I'm working with, they've got an SEO agency, a PPC agency, a CRO agency, 50 staff, a million pound of money to spend on marketing. They need more than what you can get from other data sources and that's why they're transitioning to GA4. So I think there's going to be a real mix and from us as marketeers as SEO people listening to this, we're going to need more analytics acumen. There's going to be more accounts that you're going to look after where it's not GA as the default. You'll have people that go, well, we use Piwik, we use Amplitude, we use another software. So we're all going to have to learn more because we're going to be seeing more people choosing a different provider. And that's quite exciting, but it's work either way, isn't it? But it feels like its analytics time to grow up a little bit, I think, because you are having to really think in a measured approach. What's a nice point though, isn't it a measured approach into what you should be doing doing and why you're doing it. Crystal Carter: And I think from the Wix side, and I'm sure there's other people who are thinking this way, we've been investing in our analytics stack, so the reports that we're able to provide people, we just added another Google Search Console one, Google Search Console has been investing a lot and improving a lot of the visibility there as well. So yeah, I think you're right. I think there's going to be people who maybe don't use it as a default. I think also a lot of people aren't going to port over to GA4 because they haven't touched that website in years. There's definitely a case where there's websites that were set up ages ago, nobody pays. It goes into that GA4, nobody's going to look at it. And I think a lot of, certainly if you have a CMS like Wix, then we have analytics built into the CMS, so if you are not doing, even if you are doing a super complex thing, we have a lot of filters and things within it, but if you just need a bird's eye view, for instance, you can absolutely see that from your... Jill Quick: I think what's really useful for that, you know you've got an alternative there. Questions you should be asking yourself because yes, if you want to continue to use Google Analytics, you're going to have to get a wiggle on and get it moved over, but go through some questions around, do you use the data because there are people that go, not really, or I log in or I get a report and it makes me feel comfortable, but I don't really do anything else. How are you currently reporting on your marketing performance? You've got to look at dashboard. Well, what's in that dashboard and is there stuff there that doesn't need to be there? Are you trying tangibelize the stuff that marketing does with a report because so much of what we do feels mystical, if that's the right word. Are you ready to invest in your data quality and collection? Because if they go, "yeah, no, I can't be asked or I have no money or there's no budget", how are you currently doing your data collection? Do you trust any of the points? These are all questions you need to ask yourself. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Jill Quick: And If you come out of it and go, "yeah, do you know what? I just need to know that the SEO stuff that we're doing is useful, that the content is engaging for my readers and that I'm building my database or the shop is busy with people because they've got other sources of truth for other marketing performance stats". Then just because people are saying you should move to GA4 doesn't mean that you actually should, if it's right for you with those measurement objectives and I've had many discovery calls with prospects where I've gone, "I don't think you are ready". Like the stage of your business, which is another important thing, how big is the business and what is your stage of growth? If you are in the mature phase, you're a market leader, yeah, you're going to be using GA or Adobe or Snowplow or so you're really investing in what you're doing. But there's a lot of people at the early phases of their business and they just want to grow. They're like, what am I doing to get that hockey stick of growth? What am I doing to improve the quality of the leads and business that I'm getting? Does that mean you should be learning about GA4, setting up BigQuery, building audiences with time? You're not going to use any of that information, get your information from somewhere else and when you are ready, you review the same questions. Are we using the data? Well, how are we reporting? Are we ready to invest? Oh yes, we are. Let's move to the next step then. And then you can always go back to another provider and if some of the people that are listening, if you viciously hate it and you're not going to... Well, don't use it. If you're a consultant, you might have clients that are like, yeah, tough, you're going to have to use GA and you're just going to have to get used to it. But there's a lot of people listening that just because... I mean I do it for my job, but you don't have to do it if it's not right for you. So it's getting the right fit so that you get a dashboard that answers the questions that you need at this point in time. Mordy Oberstein: I have so many questions. Crystal Carter: So many. Mordy Oberstein: And you mentioned questions. For example, for the love of god please explain the custom creation of reports and how to get started with that, but time is ebbed away. So where can people find you, Jill, in case they have questions about analytics. Where can I find you later if I have questions about analytics? Jill Quick: Probably more active on LinkedIn. So I'm Jill Quick. I'm a cartoon face. There's not many people with the name Jill Quick. I am on Twitter, but I'm a bit of a lurker. I just log on, read what's happening and then I kind of log off. I don't really engage because certain parts of Twitter are just not for me. Mordy Oberstein: I envy you. Jill Quick: Elon Musk is ruining it for us all with the feed. But yeah, LinkedIn's probably if you want to reach out and say, hi, and then there's my website, which is the coloringindepartment.com and I'm in the process of building some more easy step guides and content to get people started in this. Mordy Oberstein: I will link to a couple of those in the show notes if you're interested. Jill, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. It was really insightful and I have a million more questions. I'll find you somewhere. Jill Quick: That just means you need to bring me on for part two, doesn't it? Mordy Oberstein: That's true. Jill Quick: Shoot myself. Mordy Oberstein: I need to recover from part one though. Jill Quick: I like being called maven as well. So just for that. Yeah, marketing maven, analytics Maven, Jill, a little bit. Crystal Carter: We'll have to bring you in after July. It’s done. What? Jill Quick: Calling over your keyboard, so bad. Mordy Oberstein: If you see, by the way, you see a helicopter crashing somewhere. That is me using GA4. Jill Quick: Yeah. Okay, got it. But you can learn. I mean, one final note from me on this. Honest to God, if you can learn SEO, if you can understand Google's algorithm and do your log file analysis and make sense of Google Search Console, you can learn GA4. It is a learnable skill. You just have to get over the hump of the stages of grief, isn't it? Like ignoring it, anger, frustration, acceptance. And now we're in the doing part. Yeah, you can do it though, Mordy. I believe in you. Mordy Oberstein: Accepting is hard for me. Jill Quick: Yeah. You can do it. I believe in you. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on, Jill. We really appreciate it. Jill Quick: Thanks for having me. Crystal Carter: Thank you so much. Mordy Oberstein: Talk to you soon. Jill Quick: I'll see you soon. Off now. Bye. Mordy Oberstein: Well, since we're talking about analytics and learning and questions, and since you're... I'm going to guess if you're like me, somewhat overwhelmed by what you just heard, this is a segment for you because in this segment, Crystal and I are going to dive into how much of that do you really need to know as we take a deep thought into how to even use or how much of analytics in general, not just GA4 to even use. It's a deep thought with Crystal and Mordy. I have many thoughts about GA4 and analytics. Most of them are not deep, most of them are salty. Crystal Carter: Most of them are just, I don't want to. Mordy Oberstein: Right. This is not a salty thought with Crystal and Mordy. This is a deep thought. Crystal Carter: But why? No, I think it's... Well, a deep thoughts like the salty ocean. Mordy Oberstein: Right. Here we go. So let me just put it out there. There's so many data points. So let's set GA4 aside for a second. Let's stick in our comfort zone. I'm imagining myself still in Google Analytics 3 or universal analytics, the real analytics, you want to call it that. And in there is a ton of data, an enormous amount of data. And this could be applied to your SEO tools. This could be applied to Google's search console, even though I think that's a little bit less, but even to Google Search Console and of course at GA4, how much of that data is, wow, so cool. I have access to that data versus, you know what? That's really good data point that I need to make sure that I'm reporting on and tracking carefully. Crystal Carter: I don't know. People love data. They love a chart. They love a chart. And to be honest, you have to have some kind of data in order to back up the things that you want to do. And in order to get proof of concept for the things you want to do. Mordy Oberstein: Of course, this is not, should you use analytics, the question is how much of it, and I will put my foot on the landmine and say sometimes it's too much or sometimes it's not worth the while. Although, I am a data nerd, so I kind of get it. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: But I think that sometimes it might like less is more. I feel like that phrase in reality is usually not true. You give me a steak, I want more, not less, give me a house, more, not less. But with analytics sometimes less is more. Crystal Carter: I think that's true. Certainly I think that when you think about reporting to decision makers, you can blind them with science. And sometimes if there's too many numbers, people don't trust the numbers... Mordy Oberstein: Science. Crystal Carter: I think people don't trust the numbers that you give them because they can't see the wood for the trees as it were. So that's definitely the case. I've also seen it sometimes where I've had clients who were tracking the wrong thing and they were really, really, really worried about one particular metric or another. We had the fantastic Jill Quick here talking about GA4, yesterday we had the fifth or the... Sorry, not yesterday in podcast release time, but yesterday in podcast recording time. Mordy Oberstein: Yesterday in our recording time. Crystal Carter: We had the amazing Christian Simon and she was talking about bounce rate and how she hates bounce rate. And I know that there's an entire contingent of SEOs who really hate bounce rate as a metric. So there's metrics that people get hung up on and sometimes make big poor decisions over those metrics. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Crystal Carter: And you say, oh God, we really need to sort this out. And they're trying to find a solution for a problem that doesn't exist because they're looking at the wrong metric. And sometimes when you have lots and lots and lots of metrics to choose from, people will pick the shiniest one and that will be the thing that they worry about. But it's not actually worth the bother, to quote you from a previous podcast, "sometimes it's a nothing burger". Mordy Oberstein: That's right. So that snore, what should I say about my meta descriptions being too long or short? By the way, I want to start optimizing meta descriptions by converting them from actual text, like wing dings, like symbols and see how that goes on my SEO. I think also at the same time when I find this, I get sometimes caught up in this is that what you end up doing is, and it's going to apply to any sort of data and analysis. Let's say keywords, keyword analysis, whether it's rankings or impressions or whatever it is, you could get so far down the rabbit hole. You can start looking at minutiae of minutiae. You can do this with any. You can dive into, let me see how I'm doing in the US. Okay, fine. Great, that makes sense. Let me see how I'm doing in New York. Okay, that kind of makes sense. Let me see how I'm doing in West Hempstead. Does not matter. I will tell you, unless you're a local business located in West Hempstead, New York, it doesn't really matter, but you could go that far. You can go so far down the rabbit hole that you end up creating problems for yourselves that if you took a minute to stop and think they are problems, you probably could fix them. You might see some benefit, but what's the opportunity cost? Does it really matter? Or is my time better spent focusing on larger problems? And I feel like that's sometimes is the danger with data and analytics. Crystal Carter: And I think also benchmarking. Benchmarking is really important in this whole conversation around GA4. There's a lot of people talking about migrating your data and storing your data from UA. So they're going to make it so that you can't access the UA data. They're going to make it so that the UA data is not available or stops collecting or that sort of thing. So if you want to get insights on what is good for your business, because that's the thing, if like someone says, "oh, we got 4,000 clicks this month", on whatever thing it was, or it's like, "is that good?" I don't know if that's good for your business. What if your business is used to having 400,000 clicks and this month you had 4,000 or what if it's used to having 4,000 and this month you had 400, then how do you know what's good? If you're used to having 40 and you have 4,000. Wow, brilliant. So the benchmarking is really important. So understanding the context of your data is really important. So I think that just a piece of quantitative data in the middle of the ether means very, very little when it's not part of a wider data story, a data profile or business. So I think the context is very important to think about with all of these things with reporting. Mordy Oberstein: You just brought up an absolutely amazing point. We just had this, let's break the fourth wall here with the Wix SEO learning hub, where sometimes you look at a data reporting period and you trying to benchmark, which essentially we're trying to do, and you could say, okay, this is the data, now we should do X or here's the data, now let's look at Y. When really you don't have enough data and sometimes it could take months and months and months to get the right data. Let's say for example, you launch a new product or new page or whatever it is. Let's say October, November is Thanksgiving and Black Friday, December is Christmas, January is people are just getting back to the new year. It'll take you to February theoretically until you start seeing normal data. So now you have October data when you launched, which is all right, whatever, you just launched it. November, not normal data. December, not normal data. January, maybe getting close to normal data and February, you have two months. Crystal Carter: This is it. And I'll tell you right now, if any SEOs out there who do monthly reporting who say, let's compare this month to last month, February always looks terrible. February always looks terrible because January's 31 days. 31 big old days, and February is 28, so that's 29... Mordy Oberstein: Stepchild month. Crystal Carter: Three days shorter. So it's going to be less. Tell you right now, if you're looking at hard numbers, it's going to be less. Mordy Oberstein: If you look at how much money you saved in February versus January and you're spending, it might be better because, "hey, I ain't spending", it's three days where I could not pull out my credit card. Crystal Carter: Right. And March is always way, way better than February. And every March, you're like, "we crushed it, guys. We crushed it". Mordy Oberstein: We're so good. Crystal Carter: So, yeah. And I think the data point, yeah, I had a look at... Like one analogy I always use is like trees. You could look at trees and that you could do six months of data for trees between May, and you look at trees in the spring, going all the way into September or something and you go, oh yeah, trees are green, they're great, they've got lots of leaves, and then you don't know why you need a rake in November and you're completely confused because your data's wrong. So yeah, the data stuff is absolutely important. You can't make decisions without solid data. What's useful is to... I always recommend having multiple sources of data, but being able to understand what's common across them with no. . . In the conversation with GA4, and one of the things that's tricky, and one of the things reasons why Jill was talking about events so much is that the things don't always line up. So if you're trying to compare, it's like you're not comparing apples to apples. You might be comparing apples to oranges. So it's very important for you to have some kind of consistent data. So one of the things that's good during this data migration is that Google, sorry, Google Search Console is going to be consistent throughout, right? Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: You can only store data from Google Search Console for so long, so you might need to have an export thing, but she was right. We do need to be more mature about data, and this isn't just about making marketing decisions, it's also about search. Because there's so much machine learning in search and so much machine learning in search advertising right now, and so much like AI, and we say, "oh, there's AI". AI is machine learning in practice. Mordy Oberstein: So there actually is no AI, it's all machine learning, but whatever... Crystal Carter: It's all machine learning and they say, garbage in, garbage out. So you have to feed the machine good data, and the better data you're feeding it, the better the machine will reward you. So yeah, Jill's entirely right that we need to be more mature about our data. I need to make sure that works well and that includes the way that we think about data, includes the kinds of events we have. It includes the structured data that we have on our site, includes the metadata that we have on our site because that also goes into the data profile, and I've seen it before where we've had clients who were running machine learning advertising campaigns and the machine came back with all these different words that it thought were relevant to the page. Then we made some optimizations to the on page information and the on page meta tags for that page, and then the machine understood it better. So these are things that we need to think about and be much more aware of how we manage our data online and on our website. Mordy Oberstein: So I'm want to go back to one thing you said about comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison. Oranges are infinitely better than apples. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: How is an apple better than an orange? Crystal Carter: When was the last time you had an orange pie? Mordy Oberstein: I didn't say pie. Pie is better. Crystal Carter: When was the last time you had an orange pie? When was the last time little Debbie's made you an orange pie? Mordy Oberstein: What? Orange juice or apple juice? Which one? Crystal Carter: I mean apple juice has its place... Mordy Oberstein: Two fruits, in an apple and orange fruit, which one would you eat? Crystal Carter: Which one would I eat? Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: Depend on what time of year. I like a nice crisp apple. I enjoy nice crisp apple. This is delicious. Mordy Oberstein: You're just saying that it's like you could be right and you know that... Crystal Carter: No, I live in England, there's so many different kinds of apples. Mordy Oberstein: I'm from New York. We have apples. We don't grow oranges, but I still like oranges better. Crystal Carter: Oranges are oranges. You got to peel them. Sometimes the rind is thin. Sometimes the rind is thick. Sometimes it's like a whole thing. Sometimes you can peel it with your fingers. Sometimes you need a knife. You can't always just bite into an apple. I'm just saying. Mordy Oberstein: We should bite into nail though. Some snappy SEO news. Snappy news, snappy news. Snappy news. When it rains, things get wet. Wait, no, that's not how that goes. When it rains, it pours. There we go. We just finished with the February 2023 product review update, and then suddenly on March 15th, Google went ahead and announced the March 2023 core update. So I'll run through my usual spiel here. One, it takes a few weeks for this sort of thing to roll out. Two, there could be all sorts of rank spikes and losses and reversals along the way. So don't panic, let the update play itself out. Three, per tools like the summer sensor, we've already seen a few days of elevator rank fluctuations, but don't be fooled if the tools go back to normal for a few days as there can be spikes and rank reverse at the tail end, like I just said before. Definitely have a look at Barry Schwartz's search engine land coverage, if you're looking to get more context, as he's got like, I don't know, a gazillion, bazillion, trillion links to the various updates. He's coverage. You can see how the updates have functioned in the past and what's happened and how big they are, and yada, yada, yada. Yes, Barry, we know you've covered them all and now you have the internal links to prove it. Okay, onto the second item of business, and this one's not really an SEO story, but it's, Hey, hi. So who cares? Heard James Vincent over at the Verge. Google announces AI features and Gmail, docs and more to rival Microsoft. Let the AI wars begin. Okay, so basically Google is giving you the ability, or we'll be giving you the ability to enter a few prompts and have the AI create the entire content for you within a Google Doc and so forth. The example Google shows is in a Google Doc where they enter very bare bones prompt to create a job listing for a sales rep opening, and then Google goes ahead and completely goes bonkers and creates the entire complete listing format and everything in seconds. I'll just reiterate what I've been saying this entire time about AI content. Please, please, please, for the love of God, please use this responsibly. Boy do I sound like a boomer. And last, and you might say least, but I don't because it may not sound like a big deal, but to me this is huge. Again, Barry Schwartz, who else over at Search Engine Roundtable this time "Google Search, save your favorite brand's feature". So back at Google's event Search On in 2022, Google announced that you'll be able to have a setting that will let you see results on Google from your favorite brands. Well, SEO legend, Britney Mueller spotted this for the first time live in the wild on the surf when searching for something on mobile and the search came back and said, "Hey, save your favorite brand to get more relevant results". Okay, Mordy, this is cool, right? You can go to the SERP, you search for something and you search on our jeans and Google says, "Hey, save this setting so that you can get great results from either the Gap or I don't know where else do you get jeans from, Old Navy or Macy's? And you can get results from all these different companies and brands specifically and take out results from other brands that you don't like in the SERP". It's cool, but was there not a bigger SEO story than this all week, Mordy? No. It was a really quiet week. Just kidding. To me, this is huge because it hinted how the ecosystem will function going forward, where the user will be able to refine what they see at the onset. So you won't even have an opportunity to rank theoretically based upon how the user set things up. In this case, if the user set up to only see, or their favorite brands were the Gap and Old Navy, but they didn't save Macy's, well, then maybe that user wouldn't see any results from Macy's anymore. So what the user will do with the onset will define what they see, which has implications on everything from ring tracking to the very undervalued idea that brand marketing greatly impacts SEO, which in this case it directly impacts SEO, because if the people like the brand and they save the brand, if they don't like the brand, then they don't save the brand, they don't save any of the results. So there's that. Anyway, that's this week's version of the Snappy News. Oh, that was the snappiest of SEO news for you. So that was great. Crystal Carter: That was great. It was so snappy. Mordy Oberstein: So snappy and so newsy, like every week. We say this in every week, I feel this is our most uncreative pivot. Crystal Carter: Have you seen Newsies? Did you realize that Christian Bale... Mordy Oberstein: Christian Bale? Yeah, obviously. Oh, please. If you going to just try to stump me with a movie trivia thing, it cannot be that. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: Like what letter comes after a? B. Crystal Carter: I didn't realize you were such a Newsies fan. Mordy Oberstein: I love Newsies. Crystal Carter: Okay. I don't know. Mordy Oberstein: Brooklyn is here. Crystal Carter: Oh, of course. Of course. This is a movie for me. Mordy Oberstein: This is for me, it's built for me. It's a bespoke movie. Well, speaking of Newsies, actually, no, this has absolutely nothing to do with that, but before we do leave, we need to leave you with somebody who you, it should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness, in this case, more analytics awesomeness as if analytics is awesomeness, but whatever leading that little technicality aside for a moment, this week's follow of the week is the one, the only Dana DiTomaso on Twitter @DANADITOMASO. If you can't keep up with the spelling of it so quickly, which nobody can cause I talk way too fast. We'll link to Dana's Twitter profile in the show notes. And Dana is somebody who has been the forefront of the Google Analytics for conundrum. She is cautious. She speaks about it. She's a lot of great resources out there about it. So look for on Twitter. Also, by the way, on LinkedIn, she posts a lot of resources about GA4, so a great follow. Crystal Carter: Yeah, she's great. I saw her speak at Mozcon last year. She's very frank, and she's very clear and very astute about analytics and about how people track data on websites. So yeah, she's fantastic. Absolutely, check her out online, and if you see her speaking at a conference of which she does sometimes do check her out as well, because she's a smart person. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great way to put it. She's a smart, smart, smart person. No, it'll be smart for you. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: In the next week, because... Crystal Carter: Oh, yeah. Mordy Oberstein: ... that's going to wrap it up. Thank you for joining us on the SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry, we're back next week with a new episodes. We dive into building the ultimate SEO team with a very, very special guest. Crystal Carter: Hint. Mordy Oberstein: They may like cheese, they may not like cheese. Look forward wherever you consume your podcast or on our SEO learning hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. Look to learn more about SEO, check out all the great content and webinars on the Wix SEO learning hub over at you guessed it, wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify or both. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Jill Quick Dana DiTomaso Resources : Wix SEO Learning Hub The Coloring In Department What you need to know about GA4 Resources to learn GA4 from Jill Quick News : Google releases March 2023 broad core update Google announces AI features in Gmail, Docs, and more to rival Microsoft Google Search Save Your Favorite Brands Feature Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Crystal Carter Mordy Oberstein Jill Quick Dana DiTomaso Resources : Wix SEO Learning Hub The Coloring In Department What you need to know about GA4 Resources to learn GA4 from Jill Quick News : Google releases March 2023 broad core update Google announces AI features in Gmail, Docs, and more to rival Microsoft Google Search Save Your Favorite Brands Feature Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to SERP's Up. Aloha. Mahalo for joining us for SERP's Up podcast. We're pushing out groovy new insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Mordy Oberstein, the head of SEO branding here at Wix.com, joined by the fantastic, the amazing, the person without any musical references this week, head of SEO communications, Crystal Carter. Crystal Carter: How do you dooby-dooby-doo? Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: I feel like I’m on Scooby Doo now. Hey Scooby. Crystal Carter: This show is not about scatting, it's about Google Analytics. That's what we're going to talk about. But thank you for that lovely introduction there, Mordy. Mordy Oberstein: It's my pleasure. And speaking of Google Analytics, the SERP's Up podcast is brought to you by Wix, where you can easily create a connection to GA4 and have your site or even upgrade your site from UA to GA4 with the Google Analytics, Wix marketing integration right there inside of our marketing integrations where you can easily set your site up with Google Analytics, walks you right through the whole process. So isn't that great? Because today we're talking about GA4, which Crystal already said so redundant. Canonical backdoor, Crystal said it before, SEO jokes. Crystal Carter: Yeah, so today we're talking about GA4. Why are we talking about GA4, Mordy? Why? Mordy Oberstein: Oh, because they're coming for your data, hide your kids. That's right. They're coming for your kids and there is no hiding because the boogeyman is coming for your data. Your UA data. Well, it's not a boogeyman, it's Google, and they're changing your analytics to conform to the new web. So they're moving over from Universal Analytics to GA4. Either way, scare mongering aside, just for a minute, we'll get back to scare mongering later. If you're used to Google Analytics as you know it now, you can kiss it goodbye as GA4 is just around the corner. We have analytics maven and consultant and trainer over at the Coloring in Department, Jill Quick will join us as a guest host to help us make sense of GA4. Thank God someone's going to be here to help us and make sense out of this thing. Also, crystal and I will take a little bit of a deep dive down the analytics rabbit hole. We have a deep thought moment about how many of those darn analytics data points do you really need? And of course we have the snappiest SEO news for you and who you should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness. Let's get right to the point, the data point, as episode number 30 of the SERP's Up podcast enters the final analysis, or should I say the final analytics analysis or should I say the final UA analytics analysis? Either way, take it away, Crystal. Crystal Carter: Yes. So today we're talking about GA4, Google Analytics for the fourth iteration of Google Analytics. That's what we're talking about. And the reason why we're talking about it is because the end is nine, it's coming. It's coming whether we like it or not, it is coming. And a lot of people have said that they do not like it. However, it has improved since they said that it was coming. So basically if we think about the timeline, they launched the beta for GA4 in 2019. Then in 2020 they announced the official release. Then in 2022, they announced that there was a deprecation date for UA because until that point, everyone had been pretty much with the exception of fine analytics professionals like Jill had been sort of burying their heads in the sand around GA4. And then after that point people started going, "oh my gosh, yeah, maybe we actually should deal with this". And then deadline for deprecation in June 2022, and then they finally gave us the full deprecation date, which is the 1st of July 2023, which is not that long from right now. If you look at your calendar and if you look up and you haven't done anything with regards to GA4, that is one of the reasons why we are bringing this up because it is time to take your head out of the sand. It is time to step into the light, face the music as it were, and to get involved with GA4. There was a recent email that came around that said that Google was going to migrate it for you if you didn't do it yourself. And this is something that we think that you should probably do that yourself if you can. I'm sure Jill will get into that a little bit more. But that's why we're talking about it. It's super important. And whether you are really into your analytics or not, the team that runs your marketing is almost certainly relying on quality analytics from UA or from a tool that is using UA backed data. So this is something that you should be thinking about and something that you should definitely make sure that your team is covered by because they also announced that at a certain point, you won't even be able to see or get access to that data. So this is something that you should be thinking about and this is the reason why we have Jill here and we are so grateful for Jill to be here to shed some light. I've seen Jill speak on this topic and I found it incredibly illuminating. So we're pleased to have Jill here. Mordy Oberstein: Hi, Jill. Jill Quick: Hi. I've never been called a maven before. I kind of like it. Crystal Carter: I feel like it suits you. Mordy Oberstein: I try to switch things up a little on people in the intros. I try to make it unique, although Crystal's is pretty much the same every week. Crystal Carter: He just throws compliments at me, which I'm not mad at. Mordy Oberstein: Like Rose is at your feet. Crystal Carter: It's fine. Mordy Oberstein: But first off, do you hear that sound? That's me slowly taking my head out of the sand, just so you know. I guess I want to know, Jill, just top level, what's the difference between Universal Analytics, the Google Analytics we're all very fond of and used to and GA4? Jill Quick: So I am going to use my little analogy of methods of transportation because I know Crystal seen it. Mordy, you've heard it. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Jill Quick: Listeners, you might be bored of me talking about this, but here we go. For those of you that are new with it, the way that I like to think of the journey that analytics has been on is that if analytics was a mode of transportation, then the first version that we got, GA1, if we're going to call it, that was Urchin around about 2005. And that was a bike. And I am old enough to remember hit counters and other weird and wonderful things from the very early days of the worldwide web marketing. So we were honestly delighted when we started to get Urchin and it was free and it was really popular. And actually... And we'll come back to this point about servers. I'm going to put a pin in that thought later. I don't think Google expected it to be as popular as it became and it swelled and we wanted more. And then we had an upgrade with Classic analytics around about 2007, and that was getting rid of the bike and giving you a moped, a scooter. So we had a little bit more with our data. We got a new user interface. And I'm saying this because we have gone through multiple interface changes. We've just forgotten because it was so long ago. Now, Universal Analytics, where Mordy's super comfortable at the moment... Mordy Oberstein: Very comfortable. Jill Quick: Yeah, this was 2011, 2012, and it is the equivalent of getting rid of the moped and the bike and giving us the keys to our very own universal analytics car. Now, majority of people, we've had this car for over 10 years and you've either been the driver, the passenger, the engineer, I have met people that don't even know where the car is parked or who has the key. We like the car, we know the car, it's comfortable. And again, it was free and you just kind of started a job. They gave you access and you drove away and got what you needed from it. With the transition to GA4, as Crystal mentioned, we had the very... Not necessarily best name of app and web, and then they rebranded it to GA4 is the fourth version of that analytics platform. And despite Google saying it's an upgrade and it is an upgrade, but it's not an upgrade as in get rid of my crappy old card that could do with a wash and some reupholstering and give me a new one. They're taking away the car, setting it on fire this year, so we can't have it anymore. And they've given us the keys to a helicopter. That is the equivalent shift that we have. And that's where I think, and I've been in the same bucket when they announced this, it was like, not now Google. It's the pandemic. I'm teaching my kids, we’re going to get the plague not now. Read the room. We don't want to be doing any of this. And there are lots of people that, and I'm sure some people are still in this bucket, they log into GA4 and they're like, what is going on? Where are the things? Because you are used to a car and the steering wheel and the dashboard and you've now got a gear stick and there's toggles that are above your head now, and it's just really not that familiar. And I know that there's a lot of people, as I said, they love the car, they're happy with the car, but with GA4, there are some similarities. Both of them have doors and seat belts and windows, but it is a completely different data model. And if you're trying to get GA4 to do what GA3 did, you're going to be disappointed. You can't make the helicopter a car. The car can't be a helicopter. They're similar, but they can't interlink with each other. So going into what the data models are, we'll think about this as the engines of these methods of analytics, transportation, the data model of universal analytics was a hit based model that ran on users and hopefully they had multiple sessions and anytime they did anything on that website, a hit was fired, A page view was loaded, PDF downloaded, bought a product, filled out a form, that kind of thing. When it comes to the data model of GA4, because it's an adaptation of Firebase, which was the product for app and web and rebranded to GA4, they have adopted that Firebase model. So they're moving away from this hit based model towards a user and event data model. And events are slightly different to events in GA3. And we can go through that unless there's a talking point on here what those different events are. Mordy Oberstein: If you gave me the keys to a helicopter right now, I will tell you exactly what I'll do with the helicopter. I'll crash that thing so hard into a cliff between a hot fiery mess, which is exactly what's happening to me in GA4, not because I don't think I understand... I think I understand what I'm looking at once I find it. I'm just having... On that car, you said, I know where all the buttons are, I feel like I'm in the cockpit. Forget a helicopter, of a 747 and there's all the switches and I don't even know where to go to find the data because GA3 or Universal Analytics, it was to me at least so simple, it's on the left-hand nav. When you go into the report, you see, okay, I can switch the medium, I can switch this metric, I can add a secondary metric. God, I can compare periods. God, it's all uniform across the board. But I feel like when I go into GA4, at one place that functions this way, at one place it functions that way. In one place that functions like this and it feels like it's a hot mess. Jill Quick: I would say that the data story is still pretty similar. So there are four different reporting areas in GA4. One of them is the reports, the standard aggregate. You have that data for as long as you're tracking reports. And in that life cycle you've still got acquisition. How do people find you? Behavior, what did they do? Conversions, monetization, am I still in a job? And on the right-hand side, you've still got the date range. And I would point out with the date range actually, there's the ability to do a comparison between different dates and match the day of the week, which is really useful when you've got certain cyclical cycles that move around and you can still add secondary dimensions. It's just the layout's different, the buttons are different. I mean Google if you're listening, I love you. I do work in this all the time, but I don't think usability was a big thing and I don't think you've done a great job in communicating how to do it. Selling the helicopter's great. Oh, you can fly around and get loads of stuff and BigQuery and all this. It's like, no, no. Can you just go through a crash course for a better word of how to do it. Crystal Carter: I think one of the tricky things is that with UA, essentially, so all the things are on the side, it's really easy to browse and there was very much as a marketer and doing audits on sites, it would be very easy to sort of go log into an analytics account and just have a look around at various things. And sometimes I'd find stuff I wasn't even expecting to see because there was so much data there and I could see and I could compare and things like that. And the thing that I find really tricky about analytics, and I said they say, oh, you can build this, you can build that, but I'm like, I don't want to build it. Mordy Oberstein: Exactly. I want to go in there, I want to see what's there and have fun, look around and see... But I feel like in GA4 there is no looking around, unless I specifically said it, I do not see it. Crystal Carter: So what I'm asking is what's your advice for people who are used to browsing and to streamline the process of rebuilding or resetting some of the reports that they're used to or that they like or even that they see other people reporting on. Jill Quick: So GA4, the success of your GA4 implementation will come down to the quality of the events that you are tracking. And I think that's been the biggest flex that... You've still got dimensions and metrics. So that terminology and that language is still the same. However, pageview is now an event and pageview was an event in GA3. So if we do a couple of minutes on what is the difference between the data model. So Events in GA3, so if you heard the word events, you typically were thinking about the behavior reports and anything outside of a page view was loaded. If you wanted anything else to be tracked in GA3, in the car, you would have to send those as events in Google Tag Manager and you'd have. . . Crystal Carter: So you downloaded something or something like that. Jill Quick: Category was a big broad bouquet. Video, the action, the doing, play the video, pause the video, label gave context of the thing that they just did brings and repeat to all the things that you wanted to track for your measurement objectives. When it comes to GA4, everything is an event. They want it all lowercase and underscore like snake case because it's a computer program. So it likes things built that way so that everything works and you now have an event name, event parameters and then there'll be values assigned to those parameters. And the way that I have done training on this and the talks I've done and the audits that I do, I'd like to think of it as event DNA. So if you can picture in your mind now the old science lesson where you did that nice little helix string of a DNA sequence, imagine that's the events that you've got in your GA4 data stream. You would have an event name up to 25 parameters, so there's 25 nodes max, and the DNA is just going to dissolve and not work and there's a certain length that we can have with each of these parameters and the values. Now, out of these events in their DNA, they are grouped into what I like to call four parent categories. These parents are made up of event DNA and we've got the auto enhanced recommended and custom. So the automatic collected events are a bundle of events that you get when you say I'm going to have a GA4 instance and I'm going to put that configuration tag on and it's going to start collecting data that's going to give you information like the page location, session start, first visit, engagement, which is like time. Great. The enhanced measurement are additional events you get in your data stream so you can further tweak what you can get. That's going to have things like page view data. It's going to have files downloaded, site search, a really crappy named event called click. But that event click has a number of parameters like link URL, which is tracking all outbound links. And for most sites that's really useful because they're sending people to Glassdoor or TripAdvisor or review sites or Google Maps. It also tracks telephone numbers and email addresses because they're technically outbound links. So these were things that were actually quite hard to track in GA3 and I've done enough audits that there were always something wrong with somebody's account, but there's a lot that comes out of the box, but you just need to know these parent categories and what you get out of it. Recommended are a bunch of events that Google has given us a list basically. So sign up events, generate lead events or forms, purchase events, they've got some pre named ones and we want to use those so we can get more information into the reports because they're listening for these. And then you have custom, which is basically anything that doesn't fit in the previous three. So I did one recently which was a B2B company that had Calendly booking so that you could book an appointment with them. There isn't a recommended event for that, doesn't come out of the box in auto and enhance, so we'd have to track it. So we've got these four parent events and if you just look at the four parents when you log in to GA4, and I think this is where the frustration comes from, you go to events and you might have nine and an event count and it'll say like, "click, file download, scroll", and you are like, "but I want to know the page that they were on. I want to know the file that they downloaded". And you can add a secondary dimension and you can play around with that if you want. But there's another concept to get your head around, which is that you can create an event from an event. Now, if we go along with my little story here that we have our four parent categories all made up of event DNA, if I wanted to create a new event, I have to take the DNA from a parent. So I'm making a child. Now, for SEO listeners, you're familiar with this concept because you've got parent categories and subcategories, children that we like. You've got all that structure. So if I wanted to create a new event to make it easy for people to see that somebody clicked mordy@website.com , then I can go into the user interface, create a new event where I say, "please create me a child and I'd like to call this email_high and where the event name equals click and the parameter equals link_URL and the value of that is mordy@website.com . Please fire a new event called email_high" and then I've got that in my reports and I can report on it. So there's some tweaking we have to do within the user interface, but it's not obvious when you log in because there's no tool tip and Google just goes, "it's flexible, you can do anything". And people are like, "give me a fricking use case". And common ones are you'll probably want to create child events for the type of file that was downloaded, see the PDFs, the zips and the docs. You might want to break out those click events for outbound links to your review site, Google Maps, telephone numbers, email addresses. And when you start getting familiar with the events, the parameters, the parents and the children, it becomes easier to understand how do I go into the user interface and ask it? Because it's a different language, isn't it? It's like hieroglyphics almost when you first start because you are not familiar with what you need to do. And it reminds me, and I think I've had this conversation with both of you before, it reminds me when I remember people showing me WordPress websites and I was like, "oh wow, that's great". I'm like, "why does mine not look great? Why does mine go hello world and there's a crap at the site, like why?" And then somebody goes, "yeah, you got to think about your information architecture and your images and your placement". I was like, "I thought it was going to build it for me. I thought it was going to do the thing and I'm not..." and GA4 is a bit like that where you have to go, "oh, I've got to do some thinking". And that's the difference between getting the helicopter off the ground and driving away on the car that the car was pre-built. A lot of these things were already there and GA4 looks wonderful. There's some great things you could do, which we were talking about in a moment. But you've got to get your head around what is an event? What are they called? Because it's taken me some rewiring of my brain to go page_location when I'm like pages, all pages, why am I having to remember new things? So there's a lot of rewiring of the brain, I think, some neuroplasticity going on to make it a little bit easier. Crystal Carter: So on the plus side, I will say for Wix users who are listening, the team at Wix have worked with Google to create some preset events for certain Wix properties. So you should have a little bit of a headstart with regards to that. But I would also say what's interesting in the events thing is that I was following along while you were chatting and starts to make a lot more sense and there's two things that stood out to me was that I think a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people when they're talking about their reporting and how they set up their events and how they set up all of the different things using additional tools to help make it easier to understand. So I know a lot of people are using Looker Studio, I'd be interested to know what you think about that. The other thing that I think is interesting is that you talked about a few other third-party tools and you talked about people trying to square peg round hole, the old of universal analytics and I've definitely done cross domain tracking and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't make sense and I believe, and maybe you can shed some light on this as well, that cross domain tracking is a bit better. Jill Quick: Yeah, it's easier. Use the same measurement ID of your data stream. You've got to make sure you go in your admin settings and do the usual that you would have to do in things in Universal, configure your domains to say Google, it's this subdomain in this domain referral exclusions. Do not pat yourself on the back for traffic and they got all the credit for the conversions, the usual. But yeah, I have noticed that a bit like Mordy be like, "my head's out of the sand". I think I spoke to a lady last week and she went, "I'm in gone past the denial. I'm in the acceptance phase now. They're not changing the deadline. I'm going to have to do it". I'm like, "yeah, you are". And I think some of the other providers like there was... Had a client that's using Drift widget for their chat box and they just announced in February that they're now able to push those events with the measurement ID and I'm like, "yay, why have you done it so close to the deadline", Shopify, they're getting it done this month now in March. They're like, "yay, Shopify's going to be working". So I think maybe the slow adoption is because we've also been waiting for other tech stack support to help that migration because you're looking for the events and now Drift widget, if you've got the chat bot is going to push those events to you. I don't have to touch Google Tag Manager. If Shopify's doing it, great, I don't have to build loads of events for e-commerce if it's going to seamlessly push that in and going to your point on Looker, Looker's using the GA4 API, so it's only as good as your data collection. So yeah, use Looker, but if you haven't got the child events and the events and the other things you want to track that's useful to you, you are not going to get as much fun in those Looker reports because it's only as good as what you've got in that data collection. Mordy Oberstein: That's exactly the point. To me, that's exactly why one of the first things we did was automatically trigger those events in GA4. But it makes me wonder at the same time, from a business point of view, do you think that people like yourself are going to end up with a lot more clients who are... Let's say SEOs, whereas before in universal analytics, I never felt like, Hey, I need to go to an analytics expert. I have a general handle on this unless I come to a specific problem, which case I need to go to somebody one level up, but the way that Google construct this, are they... And I wonder if it's purposeful or not or whatever it is, are they creating a dynamic where professionals are now going to say, "you know what? Forget this. I am just going to sub this out to somebody else to handle". Jill Quick: Yeah. I think for people it might be for time they know enough to be dangerous but they haven't got the time to do it and they want to trust that somebody else is going to do that for them. I think that when it comes to why is Google doing this and I think there are a number of reasons. The way that GA3, the previous versions work don't really work with the way that it's going to be going in the future with cookies and consent mode and things like that. I think there's another part of me that I for fun was reading some of people's financial statements to see what they were doing and they were mentioning their servers and I'm like, "oh, I wonder why they're doing that?" And a hundred percent they're going to be taking all of the servers from the old Universal analytics when they've been it and they are going to be repurposed for service side tagging and BigQuery and all the other cloud stuff because that's really expensive. When it comes to putting investment into your analytics because it's been free for so long. I don't think people... And I've made a living out this for a decade, I've done hundreds of audits and there was always something wrong. There was always a... I've got a phrase I like to use, a confabulation of data, lies, you say, honestly because nobody goes, I'm going to tinker with my data and try and fake something for my boss. They think the data's solid because they didn't know how the data model worked and how the data got there. They just took it for granted and thought, "well, that's somebody else's problem". That leads into conversations of, well, who owns analytics? Is it dev? Is it your IT department? So it kind of just drifts around in a very ephemeral way and now people are having to put some time and money in some cases to get GA4 to work, but it's probably the first time they've had to really sit down and think, what are our measurement objectives? What is it that we're trying to do with this data? You don't want to have number soup and have reports for the sake of reporting. You want data so that it's going to give you an indication of what you should be doing with your strategy and tactics. And when you report to somebody, it's only really one or two people that get that report that can action it. Here's your purchase order, carry on, you are still in a job, that kind of thing. And when you narrow that down, it makes it a little bit better and more competitive in a way for that business owner because they've really considered what do they need and how are they going to get that data? I would say out of everybody using GA4, I reckon a good 10 million or so accounts will not move over to GA4, and that's not necessarily because they're not ready or they don't want it, they're just not going to use it. They're like, do you know what? I don't do a lot of marketing or we don't invest a lot, so I just want to know that the phone rings. People come into my shop kind of happy with that and they'll find as an analytics solution that fits those measurement objectives. The people I'm working with, they've got an SEO agency, a PPC agency, a CRO agency, 50 staff, a million pound of money to spend on marketing. They need more than what you can get from other data sources and that's why they're transitioning to GA4. So I think there's going to be a real mix and from us as marketeers as SEO people listening to this, we're going to need more analytics acumen. There's going to be more accounts that you're going to look after where it's not GA as the default. You'll have people that go, well, we use Piwik, we use Amplitude, we use another software. So we're all going to have to learn more because we're going to be seeing more people choosing a different provider. And that's quite exciting, but it's work either way, isn't it? But it feels like its analytics time to grow up a little bit, I think, because you are having to really think in a measured approach. What's a nice point though, isn't it a measured approach into what you should be doing doing and why you're doing it. Crystal Carter: And I think from the Wix side, and I'm sure there's other people who are thinking this way, we've been investing in our analytics stack, so the reports that we're able to provide people, we just added another Google Search Console one, Google Search Console has been investing a lot and improving a lot of the visibility there as well. So yeah, I think you're right. I think there's going to be people who maybe don't use it as a default. I think also a lot of people aren't going to port over to GA4 because they haven't touched that website in years. There's definitely a case where there's websites that were set up ages ago, nobody pays. It goes into that GA4, nobody's going to look at it. And I think a lot of, certainly if you have a CMS like Wix, then we have analytics built into the CMS, so if you are not doing, even if you are doing a super complex thing, we have a lot of filters and things within it, but if you just need a bird's eye view, for instance, you can absolutely see that from your... Jill Quick: I think what's really useful for that, you know you've got an alternative there. Questions you should be asking yourself because yes, if you want to continue to use Google Analytics, you're going to have to get a wiggle on and get it moved over, but go through some questions around, do you use the data because there are people that go, not really, or I log in or I get a report and it makes me feel comfortable, but I don't really do anything else. How are you currently reporting on your marketing performance? You've got to look at dashboard. Well, what's in that dashboard and is there stuff there that doesn't need to be there? Are you trying tangibelize the stuff that marketing does with a report because so much of what we do feels mystical, if that's the right word. Are you ready to invest in your data quality and collection? Because if they go, "yeah, no, I can't be asked or I have no money or there's no budget", how are you currently doing your data collection? Do you trust any of the points? These are all questions you need to ask yourself. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Jill Quick: And If you come out of it and go, "yeah, do you know what? I just need to know that the SEO stuff that we're doing is useful, that the content is engaging for my readers and that I'm building my database or the shop is busy with people because they've got other sources of truth for other marketing performance stats". Then just because people are saying you should move to GA4 doesn't mean that you actually should, if it's right for you with those measurement objectives and I've had many discovery calls with prospects where I've gone, "I don't think you are ready". Like the stage of your business, which is another important thing, how big is the business and what is your stage of growth? If you are in the mature phase, you're a market leader, yeah, you're going to be using GA or Adobe or Snowplow or so you're really investing in what you're doing. But there's a lot of people at the early phases of their business and they just want to grow. They're like, what am I doing to get that hockey stick of growth? What am I doing to improve the quality of the leads and business that I'm getting? Does that mean you should be learning about GA4, setting up BigQuery, building audiences with time? You're not going to use any of that information, get your information from somewhere else and when you are ready, you review the same questions. Are we using the data? Well, how are we reporting? Are we ready to invest? Oh yes, we are. Let's move to the next step then. And then you can always go back to another provider and if some of the people that are listening, if you viciously hate it and you're not going to... Well, don't use it. If you're a consultant, you might have clients that are like, yeah, tough, you're going to have to use GA and you're just going to have to get used to it. But there's a lot of people listening that just because... I mean I do it for my job, but you don't have to do it if it's not right for you. So it's getting the right fit so that you get a dashboard that answers the questions that you need at this point in time. Mordy Oberstein: I have so many questions. Crystal Carter: So many. Mordy Oberstein: And you mentioned questions. For example, for the love of god please explain the custom creation of reports and how to get started with that, but time is ebbed away. So where can people find you, Jill, in case they have questions about analytics. Where can I find you later if I have questions about analytics? Jill Quick: Probably more active on LinkedIn. So I'm Jill Quick. I'm a cartoon face. There's not many people with the name Jill Quick. I am on Twitter, but I'm a bit of a lurker. I just log on, read what's happening and then I kind of log off. I don't really engage because certain parts of Twitter are just not for me. Mordy Oberstein: I envy you. Jill Quick: Elon Musk is ruining it for us all with the feed. But yeah, LinkedIn's probably if you want to reach out and say, hi, and then there's my website, which is the coloringindepartment.com and I'm in the process of building some more easy step guides and content to get people started in this. Mordy Oberstein: I will link to a couple of those in the show notes if you're interested. Jill, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. It was really insightful and I have a million more questions. I'll find you somewhere. Jill Quick: That just means you need to bring me on for part two, doesn't it? Mordy Oberstein: That's true. Jill Quick: Shoot myself. Mordy Oberstein: I need to recover from part one though. Jill Quick: I like being called maven as well. So just for that. Yeah, marketing maven, analytics Maven, Jill, a little bit. Crystal Carter: We'll have to bring you in after July. It’s done. What? Jill Quick: Calling over your keyboard, so bad. Mordy Oberstein: If you see, by the way, you see a helicopter crashing somewhere. That is me using GA4. Jill Quick: Yeah. Okay, got it. But you can learn. I mean, one final note from me on this. Honest to God, if you can learn SEO, if you can understand Google's algorithm and do your log file analysis and make sense of Google Search Console, you can learn GA4. It is a learnable skill. You just have to get over the hump of the stages of grief, isn't it? Like ignoring it, anger, frustration, acceptance. And now we're in the doing part. Yeah, you can do it though, Mordy. I believe in you. Mordy Oberstein: Accepting is hard for me. Jill Quick: Yeah. You can do it. I believe in you. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on, Jill. We really appreciate it. Jill Quick: Thanks for having me. Crystal Carter: Thank you so much. Mordy Oberstein: Talk to you soon. Jill Quick: I'll see you soon. Off now. Bye. Mordy Oberstein: Well, since we're talking about analytics and learning and questions, and since you're... I'm going to guess if you're like me, somewhat overwhelmed by what you just heard, this is a segment for you because in this segment, Crystal and I are going to dive into how much of that do you really need to know as we take a deep thought into how to even use or how much of analytics in general, not just GA4 to even use. It's a deep thought with Crystal and Mordy. I have many thoughts about GA4 and analytics. Most of them are not deep, most of them are salty. Crystal Carter: Most of them are just, I don't want to. Mordy Oberstein: Right. This is not a salty thought with Crystal and Mordy. This is a deep thought. Crystal Carter: But why? No, I think it's... Well, a deep thoughts like the salty ocean. Mordy Oberstein: Right. Here we go. So let me just put it out there. There's so many data points. So let's set GA4 aside for a second. Let's stick in our comfort zone. I'm imagining myself still in Google Analytics 3 or universal analytics, the real analytics, you want to call it that. And in there is a ton of data, an enormous amount of data. And this could be applied to your SEO tools. This could be applied to Google's search console, even though I think that's a little bit less, but even to Google Search Console and of course at GA4, how much of that data is, wow, so cool. I have access to that data versus, you know what? That's really good data point that I need to make sure that I'm reporting on and tracking carefully. Crystal Carter: I don't know. People love data. They love a chart. They love a chart. And to be honest, you have to have some kind of data in order to back up the things that you want to do. And in order to get proof of concept for the things you want to do. Mordy Oberstein: Of course, this is not, should you use analytics, the question is how much of it, and I will put my foot on the landmine and say sometimes it's too much or sometimes it's not worth the while. Although, I am a data nerd, so I kind of get it. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: But I think that sometimes it might like less is more. I feel like that phrase in reality is usually not true. You give me a steak, I want more, not less, give me a house, more, not less. But with analytics sometimes less is more. Crystal Carter: I think that's true. Certainly I think that when you think about reporting to decision makers, you can blind them with science. And sometimes if there's too many numbers, people don't trust the numbers... Mordy Oberstein: Science. Crystal Carter: I think people don't trust the numbers that you give them because they can't see the wood for the trees as it were. So that's definitely the case. I've also seen it sometimes where I've had clients who were tracking the wrong thing and they were really, really, really worried about one particular metric or another. We had the fantastic Jill Quick here talking about GA4, yesterday we had the fifth or the... Sorry, not yesterday in podcast release time, but yesterday in podcast recording time. Mordy Oberstein: Yesterday in our recording time. Crystal Carter: We had the amazing Christian Simon and she was talking about bounce rate and how she hates bounce rate. And I know that there's an entire contingent of SEOs who really hate bounce rate as a metric. So there's metrics that people get hung up on and sometimes make big poor decisions over those metrics. Mordy Oberstein: Yes. Crystal Carter: And you say, oh God, we really need to sort this out. And they're trying to find a solution for a problem that doesn't exist because they're looking at the wrong metric. And sometimes when you have lots and lots and lots of metrics to choose from, people will pick the shiniest one and that will be the thing that they worry about. But it's not actually worth the bother, to quote you from a previous podcast, "sometimes it's a nothing burger". Mordy Oberstein: That's right. So that snore, what should I say about my meta descriptions being too long or short? By the way, I want to start optimizing meta descriptions by converting them from actual text, like wing dings, like symbols and see how that goes on my SEO. I think also at the same time when I find this, I get sometimes caught up in this is that what you end up doing is, and it's going to apply to any sort of data and analysis. Let's say keywords, keyword analysis, whether it's rankings or impressions or whatever it is, you could get so far down the rabbit hole. You can start looking at minutiae of minutiae. You can do this with any. You can dive into, let me see how I'm doing in the US. Okay, fine. Great, that makes sense. Let me see how I'm doing in New York. Okay, that kind of makes sense. Let me see how I'm doing in West Hempstead. Does not matter. I will tell you, unless you're a local business located in West Hempstead, New York, it doesn't really matter, but you could go that far. You can go so far down the rabbit hole that you end up creating problems for yourselves that if you took a minute to stop and think they are problems, you probably could fix them. You might see some benefit, but what's the opportunity cost? Does it really matter? Or is my time better spent focusing on larger problems? And I feel like that's sometimes is the danger with data and analytics. Crystal Carter: And I think also benchmarking. Benchmarking is really important in this whole conversation around GA4. There's a lot of people talking about migrating your data and storing your data from UA. So they're going to make it so that you can't access the UA data. They're going to make it so that the UA data is not available or stops collecting or that sort of thing. So if you want to get insights on what is good for your business, because that's the thing, if like someone says, "oh, we got 4,000 clicks this month", on whatever thing it was, or it's like, "is that good?" I don't know if that's good for your business. What if your business is used to having 400,000 clicks and this month you had 4,000 or what if it's used to having 4,000 and this month you had 400, then how do you know what's good? If you're used to having 40 and you have 4,000. Wow, brilliant. So the benchmarking is really important. So understanding the context of your data is really important. So I think that just a piece of quantitative data in the middle of the ether means very, very little when it's not part of a wider data story, a data profile or business. So I think the context is very important to think about with all of these things with reporting. Mordy Oberstein: You just brought up an absolutely amazing point. We just had this, let's break the fourth wall here with the Wix SEO learning hub, where sometimes you look at a data reporting period and you trying to benchmark, which essentially we're trying to do, and you could say, okay, this is the data, now we should do X or here's the data, now let's look at Y. When really you don't have enough data and sometimes it could take months and months and months to get the right data. Let's say for example, you launch a new product or new page or whatever it is. Let's say October, November is Thanksgiving and Black Friday, December is Christmas, January is people are just getting back to the new year. It'll take you to February theoretically until you start seeing normal data. So now you have October data when you launched, which is all right, whatever, you just launched it. November, not normal data. December, not normal data. January, maybe getting close to normal data and February, you have two months. Crystal Carter: This is it. And I'll tell you right now, if any SEOs out there who do monthly reporting who say, let's compare this month to last month, February always looks terrible. February always looks terrible because January's 31 days. 31 big old days, and February is 28, so that's 29... Mordy Oberstein: Stepchild month. Crystal Carter: Three days shorter. So it's going to be less. Tell you right now, if you're looking at hard numbers, it's going to be less. Mordy Oberstein: If you look at how much money you saved in February versus January and you're spending, it might be better because, "hey, I ain't spending", it's three days where I could not pull out my credit card. Crystal Carter: Right. And March is always way, way better than February. And every March, you're like, "we crushed it, guys. We crushed it". Mordy Oberstein: We're so good. Crystal Carter: So, yeah. And I think the data point, yeah, I had a look at... Like one analogy I always use is like trees. You could look at trees and that you could do six months of data for trees between May, and you look at trees in the spring, going all the way into September or something and you go, oh yeah, trees are green, they're great, they've got lots of leaves, and then you don't know why you need a rake in November and you're completely confused because your data's wrong. So yeah, the data stuff is absolutely important. You can't make decisions without solid data. What's useful is to... I always recommend having multiple sources of data, but being able to understand what's common across them with no. . . In the conversation with GA4, and one of the things that's tricky, and one of the things reasons why Jill was talking about events so much is that the things don't always line up. So if you're trying to compare, it's like you're not comparing apples to apples. You might be comparing apples to oranges. So it's very important for you to have some kind of consistent data. So one of the things that's good during this data migration is that Google, sorry, Google Search Console is going to be consistent throughout, right? Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: You can only store data from Google Search Console for so long, so you might need to have an export thing, but she was right. We do need to be more mature about data, and this isn't just about making marketing decisions, it's also about search. Because there's so much machine learning in search and so much machine learning in search advertising right now, and so much like AI, and we say, "oh, there's AI". AI is machine learning in practice. Mordy Oberstein: So there actually is no AI, it's all machine learning, but whatever... Crystal Carter: It's all machine learning and they say, garbage in, garbage out. So you have to feed the machine good data, and the better data you're feeding it, the better the machine will reward you. So yeah, Jill's entirely right that we need to be more mature about our data. I need to make sure that works well and that includes the way that we think about data, includes the kinds of events we have. It includes the structured data that we have on our site, includes the metadata that we have on our site because that also goes into the data profile, and I've seen it before where we've had clients who were running machine learning advertising campaigns and the machine came back with all these different words that it thought were relevant to the page. Then we made some optimizations to the on page information and the on page meta tags for that page, and then the machine understood it better. So these are things that we need to think about and be much more aware of how we manage our data online and on our website. Mordy Oberstein: So I'm want to go back to one thing you said about comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison. Oranges are infinitely better than apples. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: How is an apple better than an orange? Crystal Carter: When was the last time you had an orange pie? Mordy Oberstein: I didn't say pie. Pie is better. Crystal Carter: When was the last time you had an orange pie? When was the last time little Debbie's made you an orange pie? Mordy Oberstein: What? Orange juice or apple juice? Which one? Crystal Carter: I mean apple juice has its place... Mordy Oberstein: Two fruits, in an apple and orange fruit, which one would you eat? Crystal Carter: Which one would I eat? Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Crystal Carter: Depend on what time of year. I like a nice crisp apple. I enjoy nice crisp apple. This is delicious. Mordy Oberstein: You're just saying that it's like you could be right and you know that... Crystal Carter: No, I live in England, there's so many different kinds of apples. Mordy Oberstein: I'm from New York. We have apples. We don't grow oranges, but I still like oranges better. Crystal Carter: Oranges are oranges. You got to peel them. Sometimes the rind is thin. Sometimes the rind is thick. Sometimes it's like a whole thing. Sometimes you can peel it with your fingers. Sometimes you need a knife. You can't always just bite into an apple. I'm just saying. Mordy Oberstein: We should bite into nail though. Some snappy SEO news. Snappy news, snappy news. Snappy news. When it rains, things get wet. Wait, no, that's not how that goes. When it rains, it pours. There we go. We just finished with the February 2023 product review update, and then suddenly on March 15th, Google went ahead and announced the March 2023 core update. So I'll run through my usual spiel here. One, it takes a few weeks for this sort of thing to roll out. Two, there could be all sorts of rank spikes and losses and reversals along the way. So don't panic, let the update play itself out. Three, per tools like the summer sensor, we've already seen a few days of elevator rank fluctuations, but don't be fooled if the tools go back to normal for a few days as there can be spikes and rank reverse at the tail end, like I just said before. Definitely have a look at Barry Schwartz's search engine land coverage, if you're looking to get more context, as he's got like, I don't know, a gazillion, bazillion, trillion links to the various updates. He's coverage. You can see how the updates have functioned in the past and what's happened and how big they are, and yada, yada, yada. Yes, Barry, we know you've covered them all and now you have the internal links to prove it. Okay, onto the second item of business, and this one's not really an SEO story, but it's, Hey, hi. So who cares? Heard James Vincent over at the Verge. Google announces AI features and Gmail, docs and more to rival Microsoft. Let the AI wars begin. Okay, so basically Google is giving you the ability, or we'll be giving you the ability to enter a few prompts and have the AI create the entire content for you within a Google Doc and so forth. The example Google shows is in a Google Doc where they enter very bare bones prompt to create a job listing for a sales rep opening, and then Google goes ahead and completely goes bonkers and creates the entire complete listing format and everything in seconds. I'll just reiterate what I've been saying this entire time about AI content. Please, please, please, for the love of God, please use this responsibly. Boy do I sound like a boomer. And last, and you might say least, but I don't because it may not sound like a big deal, but to me this is huge. Again, Barry Schwartz, who else over at Search Engine Roundtable this time "Google Search, save your favorite brand's feature". So back at Google's event Search On in 2022, Google announced that you'll be able to have a setting that will let you see results on Google from your favorite brands. Well, SEO legend, Britney Mueller spotted this for the first time live in the wild on the surf when searching for something on mobile and the search came back and said, "Hey, save your favorite brand to get more relevant results". Okay, Mordy, this is cool, right? You can go to the SERP, you search for something and you search on our jeans and Google says, "Hey, save this setting so that you can get great results from either the Gap or I don't know where else do you get jeans from, Old Navy or Macy's? And you can get results from all these different companies and brands specifically and take out results from other brands that you don't like in the SERP". It's cool, but was there not a bigger SEO story than this all week, Mordy? No. It was a really quiet week. Just kidding. To me, this is huge because it hinted how the ecosystem will function going forward, where the user will be able to refine what they see at the onset. So you won't even have an opportunity to rank theoretically based upon how the user set things up. In this case, if the user set up to only see, or their favorite brands were the Gap and Old Navy, but they didn't save Macy's, well, then maybe that user wouldn't see any results from Macy's anymore. So what the user will do with the onset will define what they see, which has implications on everything from ring tracking to the very undervalued idea that brand marketing greatly impacts SEO, which in this case it directly impacts SEO, because if the people like the brand and they save the brand, if they don't like the brand, then they don't save the brand, they don't save any of the results. So there's that. Anyway, that's this week's version of the Snappy News. Oh, that was the snappiest of SEO news for you. So that was great. Crystal Carter: That was great. It was so snappy. Mordy Oberstein: So snappy and so newsy, like every week. We say this in every week, I feel this is our most uncreative pivot. Crystal Carter: Have you seen Newsies? Did you realize that Christian Bale... Mordy Oberstein: Christian Bale? Yeah, obviously. Oh, please. If you going to just try to stump me with a movie trivia thing, it cannot be that. Crystal Carter: Okay. Mordy Oberstein: Like what letter comes after a? B. Crystal Carter: I didn't realize you were such a Newsies fan. Mordy Oberstein: I love Newsies. Crystal Carter: Okay. I don't know. Mordy Oberstein: Brooklyn is here. Crystal Carter: Oh, of course. Of course. This is a movie for me. Mordy Oberstein: This is for me, it's built for me. It's a bespoke movie. Well, speaking of Newsies, actually, no, this has absolutely nothing to do with that, but before we do leave, we need to leave you with somebody who you, it should be following on social media for more SEO awesomeness, in this case, more analytics awesomeness as if analytics is awesomeness, but whatever leading that little technicality aside for a moment, this week's follow of the week is the one, the only Dana DiTomaso on Twitter @DANADITOMASO. If you can't keep up with the spelling of it so quickly, which nobody can cause I talk way too fast. We'll link to Dana's Twitter profile in the show notes. And Dana is somebody who has been the forefront of the Google Analytics for conundrum. She is cautious. She speaks about it. She's a lot of great resources out there about it. So look for on Twitter. Also, by the way, on LinkedIn, she posts a lot of resources about GA4, so a great follow. Crystal Carter: Yeah, she's great. I saw her speak at Mozcon last year. She's very frank, and she's very clear and very astute about analytics and about how people track data on websites. So yeah, she's fantastic. Absolutely, check her out online, and if you see her speaking at a conference of which she does sometimes do check her out as well, because she's a smart person. Mordy Oberstein: That's a great way to put it. She's a smart, smart, smart person. No, it'll be smart for you. Crystal Carter: What? Mordy Oberstein: In the next week, because... Crystal Carter: Oh, yeah. Mordy Oberstein: ... that's going to wrap it up. Thank you for joining us on the SERP's Up podcast. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry, we're back next week with a new episodes. We dive into building the ultimate SEO team with a very, very special guest. Crystal Carter: Hint. Mordy Oberstein: They may like cheese, they may not like cheese. Look forward wherever you consume your podcast or on our SEO learning hub over at wix.com/seo/learn. Look to learn more about SEO, check out all the great content and webinars on the Wix SEO learning hub over at you guessed it, wix.com/seo/learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify or both. Until next time, peace, love, and SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO

How is AI reshaping the world of content creation and SEO? With Wix's Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter “prompting” the conversation, they look into the evolving landscape of AI in marketing with Garrett Sussman, Director of Marketing at iPullRank and Paula Mejia, VP of Marketing Enterprise at Wix. How are AI search engines changing user behavior? With natural language queries and personalized results challenging traditional SEO, AI is revolutionizing content production, refreshing strategies, and pushing the boundaries of what marketing teams can achieve. Plus, get the lowdown on the latest AI tools in Wix Studio and how they’re making a splash without overwhelming your workflow. Back AI & The Future of Search Engines How is AI reshaping the world of content creation and SEO? With Wix's Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter “prompting” the conversation, they look into the evolving landscape of AI in marketing with Garrett Sussman, Director of Marketing at iPullRank and Paula Mejia, VP of Marketing Enterprise at Wix. How are AI search engines changing user behavior? With natural language queries and personalized results challenging traditional SEO, AI is revolutionizing content production, refreshing strategies, and pushing the boundaries of what marketing teams can achieve. Plus, get the lowdown on the latest AI tools in Wix Studio and how they’re making a splash without overwhelming your workflow. Previous Episode Next Episode Episode 107 | October 23, 2024 | 55 MIN 00:00 / 52:55 This week’s guests Paula Ximena Mejia Paula is the Vice President of Enterprise Marketing at Wix Studio. She is responsible for growth, brand and product marketing for this audience. With seven years at Wix, Paula has led various marketing efforts in the areas of customer success, eCommerce and inbound marketing, catering to the platform’s 250+ million users worldwide. Garrett Sussman Garrett Sussman is the Demand Generation Manager at SEO Agency iPullRank. He’s been in the content marketing and SEO game for the past 10+ years. He's the host of The SEO Weekly and the Rankable Podcast. Iced coffee, comic book movies, and Philly sports fuel his soul. Notes Transcript Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to serps. Aloha. Mahalo. Put your serps up podcast. We're pushing out some grooving insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Morty oversting, the head of SEO brand here at Wix. And I'm joined by the always cutting edge, innovative new emerging tech of the SEO communications world, or head of SEO communications here at Wix and Wix studio, Crystal Carter. Crystal Carter: Hello. I try not to cut up too much. I've been known to cut a rug from time to time. I've always liked that turn of phrase. Mordy Oberstein: It was better than cutting the cheese, so. Crystal Carter: Oh no, we're not doing that on this podcast. Mordy Oberstein: It's like a podcast, guys. What a bad rap for cheese. Like, cheese is wonderful. Like, why would I get her, like cut the cheese. Please, please cut me some cheese. Crystal Carter: I mean, I've had some smelly cheese in my time. Like there are some cheeses that like really go for it. Mordy Oberstein: It's like fancy people's cheese. Like, I'm not talking about that. Like cheddar and mozzarella, right? Maybe some monster, right? Crystal Carter: We keep it simple. We keep it like, like classy. Yeah, that's what it works. Mordy Oberstein: The Surface up podcast is brought to you by Cheez whiz and not by cheese, but by Wix Studio, where you can only subscribe to our SEO newsletter Searchlight, over@wix.com SEO Learn Newsletter. But where you can also spin up some AI images, create title tags and meta descriptions using AI and more. Look for it wherever you do stuff inside of Wixtudicause all over the place. It's everywhere. AI is everywhere inside of Wix Studios. I'm trying to say is today we're talking about preparing for the future as AI search engines and AIO reviews aiositive set to dominate the skies perhaps maybe. And as the chat GPTs of the world rule the seas, why an entity first approach to SEO show rule the day when looking to get your URL's into AI outputs. Why there are no shortcuts, cheats and or hacks to reigning supreme in AI results. Mordy Oberstein: So sorry. Not heading yonder past the mountain views and gazing out on AI search engines beyond Google as AI SEO influencer, an actual real life human being, Garrett Sussmann pipes in on how AI search engines will change user behavior. Plus, we talked to Wix Studios Paula Mejia about what AI abilities move the needle for large marketing teams. And of course we have your snappiest of SEO News and who you should be following on social media for more SEO and AI awesomeness. So as AI search engines and outputs with URL's of all sorts set to ascend towards user preference, sovereignty, and how ye can knight thyself master of the realm. That is. LLM on this, the Serps up podcast. I win all medieval times in y'all, which like, it's such a weird thing, medieval. Mordy Oberstein: You show up to watch, like, people jousting while you're eating a cheeseburger. I've never been there, so I don't know, but it seems weird. Crystal Carter: I don't know. I kind of always wanted to go to the knights of roundtable in Las Vegas. I don't know, mostly to hear the terrible english accents. Like people in Las Vegas going, hear ye, hear ye. Mordy Oberstein: Like, I'm not from England. Clearly they don't do that all the time. Crystal Carter: What? Have terrible english accents? Mordy Oberstein: No, like I thought, like, you know, if I'm an english person, I'm going into, I don't know, like a restaurant. I'm trying to get the waiter's attention. I'll be, hear ye, hear ye, thy waiter. They don't do that. Crystal Carter: Only for special occasions. Mordy Oberstein: Ah, okay. They don't have like a bella ringing? Crystal Carter: No, only for special occasions. In England, what you do find is there are sometimes places where they have a lord mayor and the lord mayor has bling, has ridiculous necklaces, this huge necklace and wears a cape and stuff. It's amazing because they're supposed to have all this decorum, but they wear all. Mordy Oberstein: This bling that I'm talking about touristy Englands for me. So. All right, all right. It's the subject of basically every marketing team's meetings, blog posts, social media. It's the subject of all the posters on trees, whatever, is basically how do I get my site mentioned? And when possible, link to an AI output like search, GPT, chat GPT, and everyone's favorite classic, the AI overview. And it seems to me that everyone is looking for some sort of like optimization hack. I cannot tell you how many times people are like, yeah, how can I get in there quickly? And the answer is, there's no hack. It's a lot of work to get in there, and it's going to be a lot of real digital marketing, presence, brand presence, building, that's the only way of getting in there. Mordy Oberstein: And for SEOs, it's a different kind of optimization and a different kind of way of thinking, because again, it's really entity based. If you go to chat GPT and you're like, what are the best places to get a cheeseburger? It's going to say McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's. Because McDonald's, Burger King and Wendy's are everywhere. Those are the known quantities. Those are the known entities. And they didn't, McDonald's didn't get there. But doing something like SEO hack, they got it because they've been around forever and they're everywhere because it's not like, I don't know, it's not like links or title tags or crawl weights or whatever. It's good old entity building or in my day when I walk to school, uphill both ways. Mordy Oberstein: So we call brand building, or I like to call it momentum building because fundamentally getting inside of these outputs means being the entity related to the input. And there's no hack for that. And that's where I like to start this conversation. Crystal Carter: Yeah, so this is something that I've looked into and I'll be speaking at Brighton SEO. I can't remember if this goes out before then or after that about this as well. And one of the things is that essentially within these systems, they're using entities to understand because from a large language model they're using entities to understand relationships to things, to understand language. Right. So a prime example that I use when I'm speaking to people is I put in the, there's a great tool if you're trying to understand entities. And we've got some great resources on the Wix SEO learning hub about entities and about the relationship between entities and search. So we have, Michelle Fortin's written a great one about entity relationships and we also have some other resources around that as well. So if you really want to get into that, and also I think Gus Pelosi has a great article about the knowledge graph and how that all works and that all backs up all of these sort of things. Crystal Carter: And one of the tools that I use when I'm looking at entity relationships, and it's really great because it's free to use and you can see it, lays it out really clearly, is something called Textrazr. Textrazr is old school. It's an oldie but a goodie. And what you can do is you can pop in a piece of text and it will pull out all of the entities that can see and all the entities that are related to it and how they're related, et cetera, et cetera. One of the ones that is a classic example that I use all the time is the Barbie movie description. The Barbie movie description doesn't mention anything about a doll. It says, like, barbie and Ken go on a hilarious adventure to save Barbie land, something to that effect. And when you pop that into textrazure, one of the entities it pulls out is Mattel and fashion doll and barbie. Crystal Carter: And it doesn't say mattel, it doesn't say fashion doll. It doesn't say. It doesn't say Barbie the doll. But because you have the word barbie and the word can in close proximity and you have the word Barbie land, the machine learning is able to, is able to identify that those entities are latent in there. So if, similarly, if you go into something like Chachi pt, if you go into perplexity, quad Gemini, et cetera, and you say, name me a fashion doll, what they will do is they'll say Barbie, right? Because they understand that Barbie, that the entity of Barbie is related to a fashion doll. Now, it's very tricky if you don't have a legacy ip like Barbie. Barbie's been going for like 70 years or something like that. Like, you know, the pre Internet in there, all of that sort of stuff. Crystal Carter: It's very tricky to sort of sharp your entity. However, Wix, which has been around for. I think we're coming. We're like old, old man Internet Wix. Mordy Oberstein: 1617 years, 18 years, something like that. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's 18 years. It'll be 20. It'll be 20 years in 2026. And Wix on our knowledge graph says we are cloud based cms. If you go into chats and say, name me a cloud based cms, guess what it'll say Wix, right? Because that's part of our entity. This is really important for a couple of reasons. One is because people try to rank on Chachi BT, but what they forget is that, like, it's not that you have to wait for the updates, right? It's not live, live data. They do have links in there, but they're not like brand new live updating links. Crystal Carter: It's kind of like, I'm gonna date myself here. It's kind of like the phone book. Remember when the phone book would come out and they release it either once a year, right? Mordy Oberstein: Big ass books. Crystal Carter: Now, if Aardvark taxis only started up in January and they dropped the phone book in December, guess what? Aardvark taxis isn't in the phone book. But the next time they drop the phone book, Aardvark Taxis is going to be top of the top of the phone book, right? So what you have to do is sometimes you have to wait for the next drop of chat GBT. So when it first came out, I think it was dated to 2022. I think now it's up to 2023. And I think that as they go on, they'll get quicker and quicker and, like, the gaps between their data updates will be between the training models will get smaller. So when chat GBT first dropped, I was like, hello? And they were like, hi. I was like, who is Crystal Carter? And they said, who? And I said, who is Crystal Carter? They were like, I don't know who you are. And it's like, okey dokey. Crystal Carter: And me and my little ego sat back down. So then I recently said to chat GPT, I was like, when was the last time you updated your data? What training data are you working up to? What was the last time you updated it? And they said, oh, 2023, blah blah, blah. And I said, okay, so who is Crystal Carter? And they were like, crystal Carter is head of SEO communications at Wix, blah blah blah blah, right? Because between then and between now, I've done a lot more stuff around my entity to build up my name around that particular stuff. Like, there's stuff on websites, there's stuff on articles, talks and this, that and the other, and that will update it. Similarly, I've had people who are like, oh, we just launched this product last month and we're not on track BT. I'm like, yeah. Cause chat GBT isn't up to last month, it's up to now. If you want to check an entity on something that's brand new, you need to look at some of the live scrape, the more like sort of hybrid ones that are like that are. Crystal Carter: They have augmented data. So they have a training set that's supported by live augmented data. Something like Copilot, right? So you launched your thing a month ago, check it on Copilot. Ask Copilot who is. Who is this? And if you're doing okay on that, then when chat BT up to updates, you're probably going to see yourself in there, right? But it's worth thinking about, but it's worth understanding, like, which models they are. So if you're. If your team is going, we're not ranking on chat GBT, we're not showing on chat to BT, understand the parameters, because there's some, some cases where, like, you're just ain't gonna. It's not, you're not gonna, you're not, because you just launched that, right. Crystal Carter: However, it's also the case of understanding, like how. How chatty BT understands that entity and understands where you are within that entity as well. So understanding, like some of these things is really, really important. And understanding how you can be unique in your entity. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I mean, look, let's assume for a second that chat GPT updated every day. It's updated every day. Fine. It doesn't. Right. As you mentioned, if you're, if you're asking, why are we not showing in there? How do we get in there? And then you're asking yourself that again next week, or even, like, I'll even say, like, next month, you're on the wrong track, in my opinion. Like, you, I don't think you understand how this works. It's momentum. Mordy Oberstein: Like, you need to generate digital momentum, which, by the way, can be offline, but you need to start, like, partnering with people. You need to start interacting. You need to start engaging, you need to start getting people talking about you, even if you have a strong entity. So, like, Google can understand who I am because I have a website, I have a LinkedIn profile of yada, yada, yada. You're not just trying to get them to understand, like, that you existed, right? You're trying to get in there from some kind of commercial way, like, what are the best soft drinks? It's gonna be coke, sprite, whatever. Even if it's not just as simple, like, as it's not simple either. But it's not as a matter of getting, like getting the knowledge graph to understand that you exist and to understand who you are. It's getting them to understand who you are and then getting them to understand that you're relevant enough to show us one of the top results in their output. Mordy Oberstein: And the only way to do that is to have that broader momentum that keeps building, by the way, that keeps building upon itself. Because if you don't and someone else will, and even if you are the top hot dog vendor, that when someone's best hot dog vendor in New York City, you might not be that again in six months from now, if the other hot dog vendor down the cart, down the cart, down the street with his cart, is building up all the momentum, and now it is the known entity or the hot entity around this, it comes down to you taking a different kind of mentality. How do I, how do I make connections? How do I get other people to talk about me? And how do I keep the momentum going? It's not a simple one to one linear optimization, like even a knowledge panel theoretically might be, which is also it's. Crystal Carter: Not, I think, from a practical point of view that that comes down to having, having like a paper trail, essentially having, having a paper trail. So one of the things that's worth thinking about is like, if there is somebody else within your sector, within your search ecosystem, I guess you would say, who is already a known entity to chat GBT and you're trying to get yourself aligned, like into chat GBT, it's worth prioritizing those links. So, for instance, like, if you were to think about Barbie, for instance, Barbie's gonna want to make sure that Mattel is already on there, right? If Mattel's already on there, then that great, that's a great place to start. So you need to make sure that you also are like very, very clearly articulated within the Mattel website within, and that you're associated with Mattel because you are, for instance, like one of the good example that I give for where Google gets a little confused and there's, there's some disambiguation that needs, needs acquiring, is like, if you were to say something like, Steve McQueen is a man known for his films, right? There are two Steve McQueen's who are men known for their films, right? There's Steve McQueen from the sixties, and there's Steve McQueen who's like a Turner Prize winning director from now, right? And what would be important if you were to disambiguate those particular entities? For instance, if you just said, who's Steve McQueen? Who is Steve McQueen? For instance, so that Google understands there are two, for instance, you need to make sure that they're very distinct, very clear named entities that are already known by these LLMs. So, for instance, Steve McQueen has a Turner Prize, or the current Steve McQueen has a Turner Prize as an Academy Award. It's worth mentioning in a bio, for instance, for, for Steve McQueen on his website and in any art, any podcasts, any, you know, awards, things that he does, any, any appearances anywhere where he's mentioned online that he has a Turner Prize, has, it has an Academy Award, for instance, because that will align with those particular entities. And then you would think when it says who's, who's somebody who's won an Academy Award, it would say McQueen. What I've seen a few times is I've spoken to agency owners, for instance, who are like, we're trying to get on chat GPT, and we haven't had any luck. Crystal Carter: We can't see why we're not on chat CPT. We ask, like, can you name a good agency in Paris? And we can't see ourselves on chat CPT. Well, I had a look at some, like, top agencies who have great, great, great work. They do wonderful, wonderful things. And one of the things that I saw was that everybody has the same bio. Like, everybody has the same, like, sort of the same, like, usp, like by line, tagline, whatever. They're like, we are a global agency serving top brands in, you know, over 100 countries on some incredible campaigns, but you could literally copy and paste that onto, like, seven different, like, top tier agencies, for instance. Like, it's the same one. Crystal Carter: So when Google's like, can you name me an agency? Like, they're, they're, they don't necessarily need to name someone specific or, sorry, not Google. Like, if you're looking at an LLM, like, they, they don't necessarily name someone specific because there's not anything specific to differentiate you. So when you're thinking about, about your entities, make sure that you're aligning yourself with named entities. So that. So that when you're, when someone's doing a search on an Llmde, on a generative search tool, like perplexity, like quad, like copilot or whatever, that when they're showing up, you're also showing up. And it's worth thinking about that in relation to your brand in relationship to the partnerships that you develop in relationship to the sort of online paper trail that you're developing across the web. Mordy Oberstein: You mentioned something that I want to piggyback on or swing back around on, and it's a website. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Like, I'm obviously interested in selling websites because that's how I feel my family. But yeah, I think a lot of, a lot of this is like, if you're, if you're listening to this and you're not a big brand and you're doing, and you're doing a podcast, are you doing a podcast? I'm gonna, I'm gonna run this, actually, right now. I'm gonna type. I am gonna search for Yankees podcast and best Yankees podcast and chat GPT at million bucks. This is what happens. I'm going to predict, okay, if I run best Yankees podcast into chat GPT, the results that are going to come up are the ones with the largest, like, web presence, and it's gonna be the ones that actually have a website even though they're more popular ones on YouTube. So let's run this great. Okay. Mordy Oberstein: There's a Yankees podcast I listen to. His father was actually a professional baseball player for the New York Yankees, Gary Sheffield. Gary Sheffield junior is called Yankees unloaded. It's a great pocket. It's one of my favorite Yankees podcasts, and there are many. And in fact, oh, this is perfect. Okay. They don't show up. Mordy Oberstein: In fact, the Yankees announcer and this might be an entity thing, actually has a radio show which on ESPN, which mainly talks about the Yankees, and he's not even here because they don't have websites. You know who's here? There's someone called talking Yanks. They're a whole like, network of podcasts, basically, and a bunch of their subsidiaries, like, they're like, they're like, I don't know what you call their sub brand podcasts. They're here because they all have websites. All of the podcasts that actually have a website and are connected via websites, those are the ones that show up here because you have to give the LLM something to grab onto. If you're just on your podcast platform, on Spotify, if you're just on YouTube, or if you're on Spotify and YouTube, there's nothing to grab onto. So if you are a smaller brand and you're like, what do I do here? The first thing to do is get, is honestly get off of social for five minutes and build a website. Crystal Carter: I think the important thing to remember is that. So chat GPT, one of the founding things for their model, one of the founding pieces of data for their model is a common crawl. So common crawl is one of the things it was based off of early, early on. And so, yeah, that's web scraping. If you're thinking about copilot, for instance, that's Bing and that's chat GPT. If you're thinking about perplexity, they have their own bot that goes around and across the web. It goes around and across web. And perplexity is listing things as well. Crystal Carter: They're also on the web. So it's worth thinking about that as well. It's also worth considering which elements are thinking about where they get their data from. So we know that Google is getting information from Reddit, for instance, and they're using that to train to train their models, including Gemini. We know that chat GBT is aligned with Bing, and you're using Bing search results as well. So, for instance, if you're not ranking in Bing, that's something to consider as well. But I think that it's worth looking at how these models work in order to align that with you. And they are listing links to websites. Crystal Carter: So the chat PBT four, which is the one that's free for most people, is listing websites where they can sometimes and then also perplexity is listing web listing links all the time as well. For instance, when you look in GA four, you can see the traffic that's coming into your sites. Jess Schultz recently shared a really good regex for finding it's really simple to use for finding all of the traffic that you're getting from LLMs. And Chachi BT is leading the charge in many, many cases, but perplexity is actually coming in significantly regularly. Mordy Oberstein: I mean, it's interesting, but yeah, and. Crystal Carter: It'S coming in regularly for a lot of folks, and I've seen it on some occasions where it's actually surpassing chat pt for certain queries. So I think that's worth understanding as well where you're getting a little bit of traction and where you can build. But they are sending traffic to websites and I think that it's worth getting on these LLMs if you're not already. Don't just log in to Google yourself, use them so that you understand how they work. Mordy Oberstein: If we're talking about perplexity, it kind of brings up something we asked Garrett Sussmann over at ipol rank, how will AI search engines change user behavior? Is this the death of Google? It's not, but it's interesting because it's a conversation that we wanted to have for a long time that a lot of SEOs are having is how are AI search engines going to change user behavior? So here's Garrett on how AI search engines will change user behavior. Garrett Sussman: How will AI search engines change user behavior? That is a meaty question. And you know what? Nobody knows. However, let's dive into this and think about it. So right now, current 2024, nothing stealing market share from Google, it's still like 90 some percent. We're talking perplexity. Search, GPT, even Bing's copilot, they're really not being used to the extent that they're making a marginal difference. However, just thinking about AI search engines and the way that they understand natural language so much better than traditional old school search engines, it could potentially be a game changer that we should delve into. No, but honestly, you think about the way that we used to use search engines, basic keywords. Garrett Sussman: We were trained by the search engines and their capabilities, but now they really can understand so much more context with the advent of mum and, and these types of algorithms that are making things so much more complex that they understand these nuance of language. So what happens when people feel more and more comfortable using these AI search engines? Well, we're going to use natural language. We're going to have longer tailed search terms. We're going to be able to talk like humans to ask our queries. We're going to be able to infuse our own biases, confirmation bias, into the actual searches we make, which as SEOs is extremely challenging and problematic because these AI search engines are going to search for more personalized results that are very, very, very specific and potentially pulled from all different types of content and other queries and other links. Remember, it expands on the queries. It's not just exactly what you're asking. In addition to that, rank tracking is going to be so much more difficult. Garrett Sussman: I mean, you're not going to be able to track a singular keyword because they're going to be so many variations. So do I think this is going to happen in the near future? Like twelve months? No, probably not. Unless, you know, we have some major antitrust trial where, you know, the american government decides that Google has to break up and there are consequences maybe faster than that, but chances are we're not going to see any actual user behavior change for another two 3510 years until people really become used to using these AI search engines and they trust the results so that they actually start to talk to them like real people. It's meaty. It's fascinating. Nobody knows, but I cannot wait to watch and see how we start to interact with this technology and it becomes more mainstream over time. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Garrett. Make sure to give Garrett a follow over on LinkedIn and on Twitter at Garrett Sussman or X. What do you want to call it? It's such an interesting conversation. He made a great point, or interesting point. It is a great point and an interesting point about the accuracy. Like for example, I actually looked up like best SEO podcast and Garrett had the rankable podcast. They got his name wrong as a host. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: So will the format allow you to deep dive the way you want to deep dive? I feel like for a top level query or top level search, like, yeah, it's probably like that's a no brainer. Like, you're going to see people going to the chat GPTs of the world, but for deeper investigations, like, I don't know, how do I deal with kidney? Like, I don't know if I want to go to chat DBT for that. But really looking to get like a balanced look and really dive into the topic. Maybe it's not the easiest way to explore, I don't know. But the accuracy thing, I know it's great, but there's, there's, there's still, and it's definitely better than it was before, but there are still a lot of instances where it's not exactly accurate. And if you're going to be like, well, I have to pick a search engine, which am I going to go to? Even like, no, 80% of the time might be great. That 20% is still going to weigh on people's minds. I feel like I, I feel like. Crystal Carter: Though, that main Google search is not always accurate either. So I feel like what I tend to use in terms of as a user, because I use multiple search engines is I go to Google and I can't find what I need or if I don't even know where to start, right? If I'm like, I don't even know what this is called, I don't know what this is. I need a thing that will help me to do this. And then they'll say, well, you might need one of this, this, this and this. And I'm like, okay, well, what is that? And then they'll explain that. The LLM will explain the information there. But he was talking about like conversational topics. When you go to Copilot, they have the microphone as the easiest thing for you to use. Crystal Carter: Like it's, it's really high priority. When you use the copilot app, the microphone is super useful and you literally just say what you want and then it will spit out something, something that you need. And I think that that's having the microphone as a central search tool is going to make you more likely to speak more conversationally, like Garrett is talking about. Similarly, within with Bing recently, they, they opened up their chat bar, like, you know, when you need to go onto it and it's like, oh, I think it's like 2000 characters or something they opened it up to. And all of these LLMs keep expanding the character count that you can add in for what you need. So I've had it before where I'm trying to troubleshoot a piece of code and before you were able to only able to put in a certain amount and then you'd sort of top off at the characters. And now I can put in pretty much the whole document and say, I have this documentation, I have this piece of code. Please can you help me debug it? And then it will help you to pull those things out. Crystal Carter: So I think that when we're thinking about search and how people are going from some of these tools into a website, I think the trust factor is important. I think for ymyl stuff, it's super, super important. I was looking at some financial question or something and I said, if my income is this, how much should I invest in this? If my income is this, how could. And then it was like, it was like, you should. And then the number that I put on the income or whatever, they were like, the whole number is what you should invest in the thing. And I'm like, that's terrible advice. Luckily, I'm not a complete moron, but if somebody was to just follow that advice wholesale, they would be putting their entire savings into whatever this investment thing is and would have nothing. And the thing that's fascinating about that is that if you go onto, I mean, break the fourth wall, I was looking at Cedars type types, things where you look at supporting smaller companies, startups and stuff. Crystal Carter: And if you go on one of those websites, it has disclaimers all over the website that's like, be careful. Investment is risky. Make sure you've read all the terms and conditions. Do not invest everything. Blah, blah, blah. If you go to buy a credit card, they say, please be careful about all of these stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Like, credit cards are coffee, coffee is hot, please be careful. Right? Crystal Carter: There's all of these different disclaimers, but in chat and copilot, there was nothing. It was just like, go, like, invest all of the, everything that you want, like, make all this money, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, guys, like, where are the, you know, you should understand it's. Mordy Oberstein: Not always there yet. That's kind of the thing. It's not always there yet. And that it's a bad association. Like, it's all about it. These kind of things of trust is all about associations. It's a bad association. I don't think it's there yet. Mordy Oberstein: I do think though, like, what's interesting or perhaps different about, let's say, like Google's use of AI versus like, going to chat. If the Google's a overview doesn't give you what you want, or it's a little bit wonky or whatever it is, you have the actual results right underneath it. So even though the results sometimes aren't always right, they're diverse. So like, the top results, not what you want, the second one might be so like that. That diversity of sources, I don't think is something that's ever going to go away. I think it's like inbuilt in what we want is when we want to look at a topic. And I wonder if, I mean, I searched GBT something different, but like the chat GPTs of the world, that kind of format, what really lend itself to what people ultimately really want. Again, it's a lot. Mordy Oberstein: There's a lot to discuss there. Who knows what we're talking about? AI products. We have a little treat for you because we know someone who knows a lot about AI products. No matter what AI search engines you might be using or what it might mean for user behavior, there's no doubt that the technology has already impacted your marketing team and one way, shape, form or another, I completely botched that idiom. And it's fine. I'm okay with it. I'm hallucinating right now. I'm AI. Mordy Oberstein: Anyway, the question is, in what way should AI move large scale marketing teams or big organizations, or even small ones too, into action? To help us end this, we're going across the wix verse with our very own vp of marketing enterprise, Paula Mejia. And this very special, as I already mentioned, across the Wix verse. Three, two, one, ignition. Crystal Carter: Lift up. Mordy Oberstein: Paula, welcome to the show. Paula Mejia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here, you guys. Mordy Oberstein: I'm terrified right now. It's Monday morning. This is like one of the first things, like, I'm actually doing with, like, you're the first person I'm speaking to this week. Paula Mejia: Oh, that's so. Actually, you are also, other than my children, who woke up at like. Mordy Oberstein: No, I spoke to my wife and children. Like, those are not people. That's family. Crystal Carter: We had a silent school run. I don't know about you guys, my kids. Mordy Oberstein: I don't have a silent anything. I'm lying. Crystal Carter: We didn't at all. There was lots of shouting. Mordy Oberstein: There's lots of shouting. That sounds. Crystal Carter: Where are your socks? Where are they? Anyway? Mordy Oberstein: Oh, my God, the socks, right? What the hell with the socks and the shoes? Crystal Carter: Takes forever for anyway. Mordy Oberstein: I love system. Paula Mejia: I have a system. So outside of marketing our enterprise solution, I have systems for finding socks. I will share it with you separately. Crystal Carter: No, please share it now. Mordy Oberstein: Okay. Yeah. Paula Mejia: Those like grocery bags that are like, the sustainable ones that are like nets? Crystal Carter: Yes. Paula Mejia: You know? Okay. I have three kids, and they're really young, so they have similarly sized feet, which is part of the problem because I'm like this. I don't know whose sock this is, and somehow it doesn't fit everyone. So anyway, so I got three of those nets and I hang them next to the laundry. So, so each net has a name, and then I put all the socks in their corresponding child's net. And then I have a basket on the side for all the pairless socks. And so they just live there until like two weeks. And if you don't find your match within that time frame. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, that's smart. That's smart. Paula Mejia: You go, you are done. I don't want anything to do with you. It's not very environmentally friendly, but like, I just can't with the, like one sock. Crystal Carter: You can recycle them at TK Maxx. Shout out to TK Maxx. You can recycle the spare socks at TK Maxx. Yes, you can. And also, this is one of the reasons why Paula does what she does, because she finds solutions for things. She finds solutions not just for socks, but for your whole enterprise. She's very good at this kind of. Mordy Oberstein: Thing, which is what we should be talking about. So AI for large marketing teams, I'll start with this off. I feel like there's been a little bit of pushback in the, in the digital marketing space, especially in larger organizations around AI. It was neat, it was awesome. We tried to implement it and it didn't exactly go as we thought it would, or we lack differentiation. We're worried about what it's going to mean for all these different concerns that maybe you don't have at the SMB level, but you might have at the enterprise level. What are you seeing out there in the enterprise ether? Paula Mejia: Yeah, no, I totally hear that. So I think before you assess the impact that AI has had for marketing teams today, I would just first look at what marketing teams, and especially leaders of marketing team, they're feeling. And what they're feeling is a ton, a ton of pressure. So I think marketing has evolved a lot over the last couple of years, and the list of responsibilities for marketing teams just keeps getting bigger and bigger. So where you used to be responsible for brand and growth, now you're responsible for, you know, ginormous P and ls. But you have less budget, you have less resources. All sorts of additional business metrics are kind of, of part of the KPI's for marketers. And marketing takes a lot of time, and it's really not that easy to do, even though a lot of people think it looks easy. Paula Mejia: And this is why I think you also see ten years of like, senior executives in marketing being quite short compared to others. So I think the average tenure, first CMO is two years, whereas everyone else in the C suite is more than five. So you kind of enter this world of like, pressure, pressure, pressure, less resources, deliver more, and in comes AI for marketers, right? And everyone is like, oh my God, a little scared. Maybe it'll take some more jobs, but it should bring a ton of efficiency, right? You should be able to create content like that. There should be no problem. It should be super great. And yet that kind of sense of urgency and lack of support, I would say organizationally, still is very much felt for marketers. And I think right now the reason is that AI feels a bit like a false promise to marketing teams in terms of the efficiencies it can deliver. Paula Mejia: Because while it's being used to varying degrees in different organizations, as you said, where it is being used, it's mostly in small kind of slivers of content creation. So aspiring partner for your content writer, maybe editing certain pieces of your blogs, occasionally being used and designed to make the process a bit more efficient. But it isn't an integrated part of your marketing process. It's kind of bits and bolts. And then you look at kind of the process of going live with a marketing campaign and it's, you know, it's like a full, it's a huge thing that involves many levels of approval. Often it's, let's call it gate kept by technology that may or may not be set up in a way to make you more efficient. And this is obviously the area that Wix studio addresses the best. So what I often tell people to look at before they even look at the AI solution is, is what are the processes and systems in place your marketing team has? And are those the right ones to make it more efficient? Because right now, if you use AI to create more thought leadership content or a campaign, but you can't get to market quickly enough because you're depending on a developer or the technical person that works on your DXP, it doesn't matter if you create that content really fast, but no one will see it. Paula Mejia: And marketing content. Tell me if you guys agree. I don't think that there's such a thing as like Evergreen content anymore. I think most marketing content now is a very specific shelf life. So I see a lot of marketers under this pressure to create more. And the creation process is kind of getting there, but then the getting to the market with that thing you created is not being enabled by AI. And so this is part of the gap that I think we absolutely have to bridge and something that we're working on at Wix Studio to do so teaser. That's the new product that's coming out next year. Paula Mejia: But basically what we understood is, okay, you know, Wix generally, and Wix Studio has kind of solved the problem of creating sites at speed, creating digital assets at speed at the highest quality. Crystal Carter: Right. Paula Mejia: So that's kind of the end, right? And the beginning is more the content creation, which as I said, right now feels quite strange in terms of how AI can support you. And my content writers use club and my designer uses whatever synesthesia promotion video. So how do you kind of integrate all those things together? And this is, that's the idea. This is what we're working on, a platform, a marketing suite, let's call it, that enables marketing teams to create the highest quality assets that are enabled by AI. Crystal Carter: And I think that this is something I really like about the approach. So when you go into Wix studio, there's AI everywhere, but it's not overwhelming. Like I use Grammarly all the time and Grammarly is constantly trying to push AI on me and I'm like, I don't want it. Just tell me how to spell receipt because I always put the e and the I in the wrong place. Just tell me how to spell it, please. Thank you. And whereas like with Wix, like what we have is we haven't, we have an opt in for all of the areas and we have, and with Wix Studio, we have it built into all of the different parts. So if you're stuck on a page and you need to get that page out and you're, you're like, I don't know how to write this about page. Crystal Carter: You can click the create with text. If you've got a bunch of products that are brand new and you need to get product descriptions on there so that you go to market, then we have tools that help you do that. We have tools that help you do stuff in the CMS that you're like, okay, I want to create a bunch of dynamic pages. We have templates for that. Go forth and do what you need to do. I've got this image that somebody sent me. It's a great image, but it's only this many megapixels and I need it to be bigger and I don't want to have to wait two weeks for them to send me another picture. I can upscale it in this part of the, the CMS as well. Crystal Carter: You don't want to have to wait four weeks for the developer to come back to you to make the page responsive. All of that sort of stuff, we have it built in at point of use so you don't have to go and search for another tool to find it because I think that that can be really tricky for marketing teams right now. There's this need to adopt. But also, every time you try to adopt something, there's the time to learn it, but then there's something else that comes out right after that. And then you're like, oh, I spent all this time learning this other AI tool and now there's this new one and it's sort of, there's so much technology coming out right now, it's difficult to keep up. Paula Mejia: Exactly. No, that's exactly right. Mordy Oberstein: The pressure to adopt, I think, is interesting. It's almost like, it's like a value in and of itself. Like, we have to be using AI, but so it creates this, like, almost like weird, weird pressure on these teams to start using AI. But then when you start actually think you mentioned before, when you start thinking about, like, where it's actually applicable and where it's not applicable, it's really, you know, I would say not few and far between, but it's really targeted. I feel this. Right. I have a ton of content to get out, but I also am, like, very, very careful about my messaging. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: So it does work, but that it doesn't work. And, like, finding that sweet spot is so hard right now. Paula Mejia: I feel like, yeah, for sure. I think for me, it's really also important to say that when we talk about efficiency, I think it's often understood as, oh, marketers are just trying to put more and more content out there. And for me, it's less about. More and more about optimizing content you have. Crystal Carter: Right. Paula Mejia: Like, everything. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Paula Mejia: You need to be able to put things out and then iterate on it quickly. And what about. I need 17 different articles. I need to create the landing page that comforts best for my audience. So I need multiple versions generated quickly enough, which I think is very in line with what you said around your messaging. Like, it's about kind of getting that quality and efficiency at the right balance. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. That's why, like, reusing something that, where you can have, like a construct and have the AI reuse it in multiple places and you come in after the fact and kind of like, do your thing with that, with that construct, I think it's a great way to use AI. Crystal Carter: I think also when you're talking about building on the quality, like, there's the, you've mentioned evergreen content, and I think that our idea of evergreen content has definitely changed, partially because, like, the not trend cycle, but what's new, what's considered new content on Google, whatever is changing. Like, the gap between, like, and I, I talked about this at the beginning of the year. And then we're seeing it, seeing this play out is that the gap between content refreshes is getting much smaller because teams that are using AI, teams that have accelerated content updates. So, for instance, it might be that you put out a piece of content and then you look back at it and you're like, actually, I could put this into a table. You can use AI to take that paragraph. You drop that into your AI tool and say, make this into a table. And they can make it into a table. It's not rewriting. Crystal Carter: It doesn't have to hallucinate. You can check everything really quickly. You can pop that into the table and make the content better, more readable, accessible to more people. For instance, using tools like that, maybe you didn't have illustrations and maybe now you're able to do that, for instance, and repurposing content. Right. Paula Mejia: Like, we marketers have lots of ideas. You don't need to reinvent the wheel every time. You just need to get it to your audience, maybe in a different channel, make sure they didn't miss it on the channel that already existed. And repackaging content, that was good and that had an impact. Like, we need to be doing that. That's for sure. Our key to efficiency and making sure that our, our impact is higher. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, we just recorded 100th episode of this podcast a few weeks ago. So we recorded in a stream. We did a live version of it recorded in Streamyard. And Streamyard gives you a way to, like, auto generate clips through AI to repurpose them, like, just exactly what you're looking for. Like, I don't want to have to go back through, manually create an audiogram if you can, you know, cut that out for me and it's, and it's decent. Give me 20 of them. If ten of them are good, then great. I still save a ton of time. Crystal Carter: Right, right. And I think that there are a lot of people who are talking about efficiency. PricewaterhouseCooper recently did a report and they were saying that that's the biggest gains that we're seeing right now, today. And then as we go forward, we should see more AI agents that are more specialized and more unique for things. Where are you seeing marketing teams make the most efficiency gains right now from AI? Paula Mejia: Yeah, I think in content creation, that's where I see it the most. But I think that the impact really lies in the, in the hands of the creator. You guys have seen some really bad execution events in the SEO world, and I've all like people who I'm just like I, you know, I'm not an expert, but that looks really not like. Mordy Oberstein: The right way to create. Paula Mejia: I think some people, like I said, have misunderstood the efficiency that AI can bring with the fact that you still really much are the gatekeeper of the quality of that content. So I think this is, this, you know, like I said, there's, there is a promise that AI has for marketers. And I know we're close, but I think we need to be responsible in the way we use it and make sure that it is up to the highest quality standards. And that's something that I think anyone who is concerned about the future of your job with AI, whether you're in content design or in a more managerial area in marketing, I don't think that they will replace you. I don't think AI was going to replace an individual, but I think people who use AI will take your job if you're not using it. That for sure. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I agree. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Paula Mejia: I think for agencies, I don't know if this is something that's come up in some of your conversations in the past, but I've spoken with a lot of agencies, some of which are more hesitant to use AI than others. And I think customers of agencies are rising up and asking, how are you using AI to make my money go farther? Show me the ways in which you're employing this new technology, or I'm going to go to another agency that can. And I think that, like I said, marketing and advertising is an area of a lot of pressure. And I think AI, because everyone hears about it and hears efficiency, you will be, in a way, accountable for showing how you're using it, but also making sure the quality is of the right standard. Crystal Carter: I think the other thing is that. So I recently attended an event. There's a group in London called Agency Hackers, and they've got another one coming up at the beginning of the year called the robot, are coming. It's a great session. It's very hands on about AI and how people are using AI. I spoke to loads of agencies there about how they're using AI and how we use AI at Wix and how one of the things, so just to give us the wix first, a little bit behind the fourth wall or whatever, at Wix, like, and you posted about this, actually on your LinkedIn, Paula, about how, like, we had, we, you know, we regularly have, like, AI workshop days. Like, we have, like, what can we do with AI? Let's have, let's talk about, like, different things that we're doing with AI. We have like, you know, we have, you know, working groups where people are trying things, testing things, iterating with things, talking to each other about how they're, how they're using it. Crystal Carter: But what's really important, and one of the things I love about Wix is that, like, we test things and as a team, as a company, as a business, we're not afraid to like, try something and see what happens and learn from it. If you're an agency, enterprise business, any kind of business, if you're not using AI, then you're also not learning how to use AI. If you're not using it in any way, then you don't know, you know, what you can do or how you can do it. We had Dale Bertrande on for a great webinar a few months ago, and one of the things he was talking about was a really good way to get started is to use Chachi. He had a couple of, a couple of ways. One was to try to use Chachi PT for everything, and then you'll learn very quickly what you can't use it for. Another way was to give it your to do list and say, how can you help me with this? And that can be really useful as well. But testing iterating and not expecting it to be, not expecting it to be perfect the first time, so, so, so important, I think. Mordy Oberstein: I think you have to kind of realize, like, where it is and where it's not really applicable categorically. Like, if you're on the performance side, like, there's gonna be a lot more ways where it's really, really, really easy and much more linear to realizing how you can use AI. Let's say you're more like, on the brand side, and especially in a world where content has become much more conversational, that you're going to have a more of a difficult time using it, or I was a more difficult time. You're going to be a little more creative in how you're going to use it. I use it in the research phase. I can use it to write up to x points where you're going to have to be a little more cautious, a little more strategic about how you go about implementing it. And again, if you're a marketing manager listening to this and you have multiple teams under you, I think you need to realize that different types of teams are going to be able to use the AI in different ways in different moments. It's not a linear equation. Paula Mejia: Absolutely. I will say, though, about the brand component, at least our solution does allow marketing teams, especially with larger integrated marketing teams, where I keeping that consistent tone of voice across, whether it's a franchise model or just different localized teams, that does enable you to keep more consistency in place just by putting certain guardrails in terms of how changes are rolled out across all your sites, making sure that it's following certain brand guidelines. So there are some things kind of helping that brand consistency component that I think teams really need to be aware of. But yeah, back to your point, Crystal. I think something that marketers are also responsible for on top of brand awareness, growth, conversion, blah, blah, is a tech stack. Now, no matter what you do, you're a technology user. And if you're managing a team, you need to be up to date on what technology they're using. Are they using the right one? Are they using outdated technology? Do you have even just from an ROI perspective, do you have too many licenses for things that are not bringing you value? Like do your tech stack audits people, even if you're not really like, this is kind of like a realization I had. Paula Mejia: I was at an event recently that we hosted in London and I was talking to someone about their CRM and they're like, oh, we have three CRMs. And I almost fell out of my chair, girl. Crystal Carter: Why? Paula Mejia: And you know, it's like legacy and also different teams. We don't like there was a some kind of reason, but you know, from an efficiency and like data quality perspective, three CRM's not the way to go, you guys. Crystal Carter: This is like your sock. If you haven't found your socks in two weeks, if you haven't touched that CRM in two weeks, let it go. Mordy Oberstein: Having worked two different SEO tool providers, I can tell you like, there's a significant amount of their user base or people who are paying large amounts of money every month who don't log into the tool. Crystal Carter: It's like people who go to the gym or who have a gym membership and. Mordy Oberstein: Exactly, that's what. Yeah, that's the SEO equivalent. Right, Paula? Folks want to keep up to date with what you're doing on the enterprise side for marketers and AI. Where can they find you? Paula Mejia: You can find me on LinkedIn. That's my, that's my jam these days. Mordy Oberstein: So everybody's jammed these days because there's nowhere else to go. Paula Mejia: Also true. Mordy Oberstein: Also speaking truth on the serves up podcast. Thank you so much, Paula, for coming on and telling us about the enterprise product. And we'll see you out there. Paula Mejia: Yeah, happy to. Thanks so much. Have a good day. Mordy Oberstein: Make sure, you follow Paul Mejia over on LinkedIn. Paul is wonderful, you know, also wonderful, Barry's wonderful, and all the other people who cover the SEO news as well. Which brings us to this week's snappy news. Crystal Carter: In a major development that was the talk of the digital marketing world, Semrush has announced its acquisition of third Door Media, the parent company of search Engine Land. This acquisition also includes all of their door media's brands, including SMX, the search Marketing Expo, Martech.org, comma, the Martech Conference, and digital Marketing Expo. For anyone that's been keeping score, this is another jewel in the some rush SEO media crown alongside backlinko and traffic think tank, this is quite the media portfolio. In other news, Google has announced a significant leadership change. Nick Fox has been appointed as the new head of Google Search, succeeding Prabhakar Raghavan, who is transitioning to chief technologist. Fox has been at Google since 2003 and will now oversee the knowledge and information division, which includes search, ads, e commerce, products and other things. This leadership change comes amidst lots of competition and legal pressures as Google faces lots of challenges from lots of different angles. Speaking of Google challengers over there at Bing, Microsoft is integrating new AI features into their search platform, so you can expect to see AI enhanced summaries providing concise information from different online sources appearing in the knowledge panel section. Crystal Carter: Though these aren't quite widely available just now, you should expect to see them roll out in the near future. Also from Bing, there have been lots of reports that there are bugs within the Bing webmaster tools API and documentation. Ryan Siddle, for instance, highlighted at least five issues, including problems with setting country and region on site requests. Microsoft has responded, saying that they acknowledge the bugs and that they are actively working to fix them. So they've already got two scheduled. And that concludes the snappy news. Mordy Oberstein: That was wonderful. Thank you, Barry and all those who cover the news. When Eric Clapton wrote wonderful tonight, he was writing it about Barry. Indeed. I hope that makes you feel a little bit awkward, Barry, that's special kind of way. If we're talking about AI and we mentioned who can you follow the very beginning of this episode for more SEO and AI awesomeness? This then Eli Schwartz is your man. Eli spends a lot of time talking about SEO and AI. He did so on our 100th episode of the podcast, and he does so all over LinkedIn. Mordy Oberstein: A lot of thought provoking question about how AI will not just impact SEO practice, but impact the SEO industry and the amount of money you're able to earn as an SEO so check out Eli on LinkedIn. It's a lot of great content about that. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I think he's absolutely, absolutely great. And he did a webinar with us as well, which was really good as well, talking about all of these different tools and talking about how they impact. And he talks a lot about brand and about reputation as well. So he was joined by Anne Smarty for that webinar. Highly recommend checking it out. Mordy Oberstein: He's a good dude, and she's a good follow also. Wow, so many follows. Crystal Carter: So many follows. Check it out. Mordy Oberstein: How many follows? But where do you follow people now? Not an ex, I guess. I guess. Crystal Carter: LinkedIn. Mordy Oberstein: LinkedIn. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: That's also weird. Crystal Carter: Yeah, that's all we have, Morty. Mordy Oberstein: I know, I know. It's all that's left. It's problematic. Crystal Carter: I get more action on Instagram than I do on Twitter. Mordy Oberstein: I'm not doing Instagram. I get a mix. It's funny to see what works well on X and what works well on LinkedIn. They're not the same thing. It's really interesting. Anyway, anyway, we can. Crystal Carter: That's a different podcast. Mordy Oberstein: That's a different. That's a different griping session. Thank you for joining us on the Surface up podcast. That sounded like Sean Connery podcasts. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with a new episode as we dive into refreshing your SEO career. Look forward wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix studio SEO learning hub, over@wix.com SEO learn looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content webinars on the Wix studio learning hub at, you guessed it, Wix.com SEO learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Mordy Oberstein: Until next time, peace of love and SEO. Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Mordy Oberstein Crystal Carter Garrett Sussman Paula Mejia Eli Schwartz Resources: Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter SEO Resource Center It's New: Daily SEO News Series Rankix Wix App iPull Rank SEO Agency Wix Enterprise Solution News: Semrush acquires Search Engine Land Nick Fox New Lead Of Google Search; Replaced Prabhakar Raghavan Bing Search Adding Al-Enhanced Summary Several Bugs Within Bing Webmaster Tools API & Documentation Notes Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Mordy Oberstein Crystal Carter Garrett Sussman Paula Mejia Eli Schwartz Resources: Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter SEO Resource Center It's New: Daily SEO News Series Rankix Wix App iPull Rank SEO Agency Wix Enterprise Solution News: Semrush acquires Search Engine Land Nick Fox New Lead Of Google Search; Replaced Prabhakar Raghavan Bing Search Adding Al-Enhanced Summary Several Bugs Within Bing Webmaster Tools API & Documentation Transcript Mordy Oberstein: It's the new wave of SEO podcasting. Welcome to serps. Aloha. Mahalo. Put your serps up podcast. We're pushing out some grooving insights around what's happening in SEO. I'm Morty oversting, the head of SEO brand here at Wix. And I'm joined by the always cutting edge, innovative new emerging tech of the SEO communications world, or head of SEO communications here at Wix and Wix studio, Crystal Carter. Crystal Carter: Hello. I try not to cut up too much. I've been known to cut a rug from time to time. I've always liked that turn of phrase. Mordy Oberstein: It was better than cutting the cheese, so. Crystal Carter: Oh no, we're not doing that on this podcast. Mordy Oberstein: It's like a podcast, guys. What a bad rap for cheese. Like, cheese is wonderful. Like, why would I get her, like cut the cheese. Please, please cut me some cheese. Crystal Carter: I mean, I've had some smelly cheese in my time. Like there are some cheeses that like really go for it. Mordy Oberstein: It's like fancy people's cheese. Like, I'm not talking about that. Like cheddar and mozzarella, right? Maybe some monster, right? Crystal Carter: We keep it simple. We keep it like, like classy. Yeah, that's what it works. Mordy Oberstein: The Surface up podcast is brought to you by Cheez whiz and not by cheese, but by Wix Studio, where you can only subscribe to our SEO newsletter Searchlight, over@wix.com SEO Learn Newsletter. But where you can also spin up some AI images, create title tags and meta descriptions using AI and more. Look for it wherever you do stuff inside of Wixtudicause all over the place. It's everywhere. AI is everywhere inside of Wix Studios. I'm trying to say is today we're talking about preparing for the future as AI search engines and AIO reviews aiositive set to dominate the skies perhaps maybe. And as the chat GPTs of the world rule the seas, why an entity first approach to SEO show rule the day when looking to get your URL's into AI outputs. Why there are no shortcuts, cheats and or hacks to reigning supreme in AI results. Mordy Oberstein: So sorry. Not heading yonder past the mountain views and gazing out on AI search engines beyond Google as AI SEO influencer, an actual real life human being, Garrett Sussmann pipes in on how AI search engines will change user behavior. Plus, we talked to Wix Studios Paula Mejia about what AI abilities move the needle for large marketing teams. And of course we have your snappiest of SEO News and who you should be following on social media for more SEO and AI awesomeness. So as AI search engines and outputs with URL's of all sorts set to ascend towards user preference, sovereignty, and how ye can knight thyself master of the realm. That is. LLM on this, the Serps up podcast. I win all medieval times in y'all, which like, it's such a weird thing, medieval. Mordy Oberstein: You show up to watch, like, people jousting while you're eating a cheeseburger. I've never been there, so I don't know, but it seems weird. Crystal Carter: I don't know. I kind of always wanted to go to the knights of roundtable in Las Vegas. I don't know, mostly to hear the terrible english accents. Like people in Las Vegas going, hear ye, hear ye. Mordy Oberstein: Like, I'm not from England. Clearly they don't do that all the time. Crystal Carter: What? Have terrible english accents? Mordy Oberstein: No, like I thought, like, you know, if I'm an english person, I'm going into, I don't know, like a restaurant. I'm trying to get the waiter's attention. I'll be, hear ye, hear ye, thy waiter. They don't do that. Crystal Carter: Only for special occasions. Mordy Oberstein: Ah, okay. They don't have like a bella ringing? Crystal Carter: No, only for special occasions. In England, what you do find is there are sometimes places where they have a lord mayor and the lord mayor has bling, has ridiculous necklaces, this huge necklace and wears a cape and stuff. It's amazing because they're supposed to have all this decorum, but they wear all. Mordy Oberstein: This bling that I'm talking about touristy Englands for me. So. All right, all right. It's the subject of basically every marketing team's meetings, blog posts, social media. It's the subject of all the posters on trees, whatever, is basically how do I get my site mentioned? And when possible, link to an AI output like search, GPT, chat GPT, and everyone's favorite classic, the AI overview. And it seems to me that everyone is looking for some sort of like optimization hack. I cannot tell you how many times people are like, yeah, how can I get in there quickly? And the answer is, there's no hack. It's a lot of work to get in there, and it's going to be a lot of real digital marketing, presence, brand presence, building, that's the only way of getting in there. Mordy Oberstein: And for SEOs, it's a different kind of optimization and a different kind of way of thinking, because again, it's really entity based. If you go to chat GPT and you're like, what are the best places to get a cheeseburger? It's going to say McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's. Because McDonald's, Burger King and Wendy's are everywhere. Those are the known quantities. Those are the known entities. And they didn't, McDonald's didn't get there. But doing something like SEO hack, they got it because they've been around forever and they're everywhere because it's not like, I don't know, it's not like links or title tags or crawl weights or whatever. It's good old entity building or in my day when I walk to school, uphill both ways. Mordy Oberstein: So we call brand building, or I like to call it momentum building because fundamentally getting inside of these outputs means being the entity related to the input. And there's no hack for that. And that's where I like to start this conversation. Crystal Carter: Yeah, so this is something that I've looked into and I'll be speaking at Brighton SEO. I can't remember if this goes out before then or after that about this as well. And one of the things is that essentially within these systems, they're using entities to understand because from a large language model they're using entities to understand relationships to things, to understand language. Right. So a prime example that I use when I'm speaking to people is I put in the, there's a great tool if you're trying to understand entities. And we've got some great resources on the Wix SEO learning hub about entities and about the relationship between entities and search. So we have, Michelle Fortin's written a great one about entity relationships and we also have some other resources around that as well. So if you really want to get into that, and also I think Gus Pelosi has a great article about the knowledge graph and how that all works and that all backs up all of these sort of things. Crystal Carter: And one of the tools that I use when I'm looking at entity relationships, and it's really great because it's free to use and you can see it, lays it out really clearly, is something called Textrazr. Textrazr is old school. It's an oldie but a goodie. And what you can do is you can pop in a piece of text and it will pull out all of the entities that can see and all the entities that are related to it and how they're related, et cetera, et cetera. One of the ones that is a classic example that I use all the time is the Barbie movie description. The Barbie movie description doesn't mention anything about a doll. It says, like, barbie and Ken go on a hilarious adventure to save Barbie land, something to that effect. And when you pop that into textrazure, one of the entities it pulls out is Mattel and fashion doll and barbie. Crystal Carter: And it doesn't say mattel, it doesn't say fashion doll. It doesn't say. It doesn't say Barbie the doll. But because you have the word barbie and the word can in close proximity and you have the word Barbie land, the machine learning is able to, is able to identify that those entities are latent in there. So if, similarly, if you go into something like Chachi pt, if you go into perplexity, quad Gemini, et cetera, and you say, name me a fashion doll, what they will do is they'll say Barbie, right? Because they understand that Barbie, that the entity of Barbie is related to a fashion doll. Now, it's very tricky if you don't have a legacy ip like Barbie. Barbie's been going for like 70 years or something like that. Like, you know, the pre Internet in there, all of that sort of stuff. Crystal Carter: It's very tricky to sort of sharp your entity. However, Wix, which has been around for. I think we're coming. We're like old, old man Internet Wix. Mordy Oberstein: 1617 years, 18 years, something like that. Crystal Carter: Yeah, it's 18 years. It'll be 20. It'll be 20 years in 2026. And Wix on our knowledge graph says we are cloud based cms. If you go into chats and say, name me a cloud based cms, guess what it'll say Wix, right? Because that's part of our entity. This is really important for a couple of reasons. One is because people try to rank on Chachi BT, but what they forget is that, like, it's not that you have to wait for the updates, right? It's not live, live data. They do have links in there, but they're not like brand new live updating links. Crystal Carter: It's kind of like, I'm gonna date myself here. It's kind of like the phone book. Remember when the phone book would come out and they release it either once a year, right? Mordy Oberstein: Big ass books. Crystal Carter: Now, if Aardvark taxis only started up in January and they dropped the phone book in December, guess what? Aardvark taxis isn't in the phone book. But the next time they drop the phone book, Aardvark Taxis is going to be top of the top of the phone book, right? So what you have to do is sometimes you have to wait for the next drop of chat GBT. So when it first came out, I think it was dated to 2022. I think now it's up to 2023. And I think that as they go on, they'll get quicker and quicker and, like, the gaps between their data updates will be between the training models will get smaller. So when chat GBT first dropped, I was like, hello? And they were like, hi. I was like, who is Crystal Carter? And they said, who? And I said, who is Crystal Carter? They were like, I don't know who you are. And it's like, okey dokey. Crystal Carter: And me and my little ego sat back down. So then I recently said to chat GPT, I was like, when was the last time you updated your data? What training data are you working up to? What was the last time you updated it? And they said, oh, 2023, blah blah, blah. And I said, okay, so who is Crystal Carter? And they were like, crystal Carter is head of SEO communications at Wix, blah blah blah blah, right? Because between then and between now, I've done a lot more stuff around my entity to build up my name around that particular stuff. Like, there's stuff on websites, there's stuff on articles, talks and this, that and the other, and that will update it. Similarly, I've had people who are like, oh, we just launched this product last month and we're not on track BT. I'm like, yeah. Cause chat GBT isn't up to last month, it's up to now. If you want to check an entity on something that's brand new, you need to look at some of the live scrape, the more like sort of hybrid ones that are like that are. Crystal Carter: They have augmented data. So they have a training set that's supported by live augmented data. Something like Copilot, right? So you launched your thing a month ago, check it on Copilot. Ask Copilot who is. Who is this? And if you're doing okay on that, then when chat BT up to updates, you're probably going to see yourself in there, right? But it's worth thinking about, but it's worth understanding, like, which models they are. So if you're. If your team is going, we're not ranking on chat GBT, we're not showing on chat to BT, understand the parameters, because there's some, some cases where, like, you're just ain't gonna. It's not, you're not gonna, you're not, because you just launched that, right. Crystal Carter: However, it's also the case of understanding, like how. How chatty BT understands that entity and understands where you are within that entity as well. So understanding, like some of these things is really, really important. And understanding how you can be unique in your entity. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, I mean, look, let's assume for a second that chat GPT updated every day. It's updated every day. Fine. It doesn't. Right. As you mentioned, if you're, if you're asking, why are we not showing in there? How do we get in there? And then you're asking yourself that again next week, or even, like, I'll even say, like, next month, you're on the wrong track, in my opinion. Like, you, I don't think you understand how this works. It's momentum. Mordy Oberstein: Like, you need to generate digital momentum, which, by the way, can be offline, but you need to start, like, partnering with people. You need to start interacting. You need to start engaging, you need to start getting people talking about you, even if you have a strong entity. So, like, Google can understand who I am because I have a website, I have a LinkedIn profile of yada, yada, yada. You're not just trying to get them to understand, like, that you existed, right? You're trying to get in there from some kind of commercial way, like, what are the best soft drinks? It's gonna be coke, sprite, whatever. Even if it's not just as simple, like, as it's not simple either. But it's not as a matter of getting, like getting the knowledge graph to understand that you exist and to understand who you are. It's getting them to understand who you are and then getting them to understand that you're relevant enough to show us one of the top results in their output. Mordy Oberstein: And the only way to do that is to have that broader momentum that keeps building, by the way, that keeps building upon itself. Because if you don't and someone else will, and even if you are the top hot dog vendor, that when someone's best hot dog vendor in New York City, you might not be that again in six months from now, if the other hot dog vendor down the cart, down the cart, down the street with his cart, is building up all the momentum, and now it is the known entity or the hot entity around this, it comes down to you taking a different kind of mentality. How do I, how do I make connections? How do I get other people to talk about me? And how do I keep the momentum going? It's not a simple one to one linear optimization, like even a knowledge panel theoretically might be, which is also it's. Crystal Carter: Not, I think, from a practical point of view that that comes down to having, having like a paper trail, essentially having, having a paper trail. So one of the things that's worth thinking about is like, if there is somebody else within your sector, within your search ecosystem, I guess you would say, who is already a known entity to chat GBT and you're trying to get yourself aligned, like into chat GBT, it's worth prioritizing those links. So, for instance, like, if you were to think about Barbie, for instance, Barbie's gonna want to make sure that Mattel is already on there, right? If Mattel's already on there, then that great, that's a great place to start. So you need to make sure that you also are like very, very clearly articulated within the Mattel website within, and that you're associated with Mattel because you are, for instance, like one of the good example that I give for where Google gets a little confused and there's, there's some disambiguation that needs, needs acquiring, is like, if you were to say something like, Steve McQueen is a man known for his films, right? There are two Steve McQueen's who are men known for their films, right? There's Steve McQueen from the sixties, and there's Steve McQueen who's like a Turner Prize winning director from now, right? And what would be important if you were to disambiguate those particular entities? For instance, if you just said, who's Steve McQueen? Who is Steve McQueen? For instance, so that Google understands there are two, for instance, you need to make sure that they're very distinct, very clear named entities that are already known by these LLMs. So, for instance, Steve McQueen has a Turner Prize, or the current Steve McQueen has a Turner Prize as an Academy Award. It's worth mentioning in a bio, for instance, for, for Steve McQueen on his website and in any art, any podcasts, any, you know, awards, things that he does, any, any appearances anywhere where he's mentioned online that he has a Turner Prize, has, it has an Academy Award, for instance, because that will align with those particular entities. And then you would think when it says who's, who's somebody who's won an Academy Award, it would say McQueen. What I've seen a few times is I've spoken to agency owners, for instance, who are like, we're trying to get on chat GPT, and we haven't had any luck. Crystal Carter: We can't see why we're not on chat CPT. We ask, like, can you name a good agency in Paris? And we can't see ourselves on chat CPT. Well, I had a look at some, like, top agencies who have great, great, great work. They do wonderful, wonderful things. And one of the things that I saw was that everybody has the same bio. Like, everybody has the same, like, sort of the same, like, usp, like by line, tagline, whatever. They're like, we are a global agency serving top brands in, you know, over 100 countries on some incredible campaigns, but you could literally copy and paste that onto, like, seven different, like, top tier agencies, for instance. Like, it's the same one. Crystal Carter: So when Google's like, can you name me an agency? Like, they're, they're, they don't necessarily need to name someone specific or, sorry, not Google. Like, if you're looking at an LLM, like, they, they don't necessarily name someone specific because there's not anything specific to differentiate you. So when you're thinking about, about your entities, make sure that you're aligning yourself with named entities. So that. So that when you're, when someone's doing a search on an Llmde, on a generative search tool, like perplexity, like quad, like copilot or whatever, that when they're showing up, you're also showing up. And it's worth thinking about that in relation to your brand in relationship to the partnerships that you develop in relationship to the sort of online paper trail that you're developing across the web. Mordy Oberstein: You mentioned something that I want to piggyback on or swing back around on, and it's a website. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: Like, I'm obviously interested in selling websites because that's how I feel my family. But yeah, I think a lot of, a lot of this is like, if you're, if you're listening to this and you're not a big brand and you're doing, and you're doing a podcast, are you doing a podcast? I'm gonna, I'm gonna run this, actually, right now. I'm gonna type. I am gonna search for Yankees podcast and best Yankees podcast and chat GPT at million bucks. This is what happens. I'm going to predict, okay, if I run best Yankees podcast into chat GPT, the results that are going to come up are the ones with the largest, like, web presence, and it's gonna be the ones that actually have a website even though they're more popular ones on YouTube. So let's run this great. Okay. Mordy Oberstein: There's a Yankees podcast I listen to. His father was actually a professional baseball player for the New York Yankees, Gary Sheffield. Gary Sheffield junior is called Yankees unloaded. It's a great pocket. It's one of my favorite Yankees podcasts, and there are many. And in fact, oh, this is perfect. Okay. They don't show up. Mordy Oberstein: In fact, the Yankees announcer and this might be an entity thing, actually has a radio show which on ESPN, which mainly talks about the Yankees, and he's not even here because they don't have websites. You know who's here? There's someone called talking Yanks. They're a whole like, network of podcasts, basically, and a bunch of their subsidiaries, like, they're like, they're like, I don't know what you call their sub brand podcasts. They're here because they all have websites. All of the podcasts that actually have a website and are connected via websites, those are the ones that show up here because you have to give the LLM something to grab onto. If you're just on your podcast platform, on Spotify, if you're just on YouTube, or if you're on Spotify and YouTube, there's nothing to grab onto. So if you are a smaller brand and you're like, what do I do here? The first thing to do is get, is honestly get off of social for five minutes and build a website. Crystal Carter: I think the important thing to remember is that. So chat GPT, one of the founding things for their model, one of the founding pieces of data for their model is a common crawl. So common crawl is one of the things it was based off of early, early on. And so, yeah, that's web scraping. If you're thinking about copilot, for instance, that's Bing and that's chat GPT. If you're thinking about perplexity, they have their own bot that goes around and across the web. It goes around and across web. And perplexity is listing things as well. Crystal Carter: They're also on the web. So it's worth thinking about that as well. It's also worth considering which elements are thinking about where they get their data from. So we know that Google is getting information from Reddit, for instance, and they're using that to train to train their models, including Gemini. We know that chat GBT is aligned with Bing, and you're using Bing search results as well. So, for instance, if you're not ranking in Bing, that's something to consider as well. But I think that it's worth looking at how these models work in order to align that with you. And they are listing links to websites. Crystal Carter: So the chat PBT four, which is the one that's free for most people, is listing websites where they can sometimes and then also perplexity is listing web listing links all the time as well. For instance, when you look in GA four, you can see the traffic that's coming into your sites. Jess Schultz recently shared a really good regex for finding it's really simple to use for finding all of the traffic that you're getting from LLMs. And Chachi BT is leading the charge in many, many cases, but perplexity is actually coming in significantly regularly. Mordy Oberstein: I mean, it's interesting, but yeah, and. Crystal Carter: It'S coming in regularly for a lot of folks, and I've seen it on some occasions where it's actually surpassing chat pt for certain queries. So I think that's worth understanding as well where you're getting a little bit of traction and where you can build. But they are sending traffic to websites and I think that it's worth getting on these LLMs if you're not already. Don't just log in to Google yourself, use them so that you understand how they work. Mordy Oberstein: If we're talking about perplexity, it kind of brings up something we asked Garrett Sussmann over at ipol rank, how will AI search engines change user behavior? Is this the death of Google? It's not, but it's interesting because it's a conversation that we wanted to have for a long time that a lot of SEOs are having is how are AI search engines going to change user behavior? So here's Garrett on how AI search engines will change user behavior. Garrett Sussman: How will AI search engines change user behavior? That is a meaty question. And you know what? Nobody knows. However, let's dive into this and think about it. So right now, current 2024, nothing stealing market share from Google, it's still like 90 some percent. We're talking perplexity. Search, GPT, even Bing's copilot, they're really not being used to the extent that they're making a marginal difference. However, just thinking about AI search engines and the way that they understand natural language so much better than traditional old school search engines, it could potentially be a game changer that we should delve into. No, but honestly, you think about the way that we used to use search engines, basic keywords. Garrett Sussman: We were trained by the search engines and their capabilities, but now they really can understand so much more context with the advent of mum and, and these types of algorithms that are making things so much more complex that they understand these nuance of language. So what happens when people feel more and more comfortable using these AI search engines? Well, we're going to use natural language. We're going to have longer tailed search terms. We're going to be able to talk like humans to ask our queries. We're going to be able to infuse our own biases, confirmation bias, into the actual searches we make, which as SEOs is extremely challenging and problematic because these AI search engines are going to search for more personalized results that are very, very, very specific and potentially pulled from all different types of content and other queries and other links. Remember, it expands on the queries. It's not just exactly what you're asking. In addition to that, rank tracking is going to be so much more difficult. Garrett Sussman: I mean, you're not going to be able to track a singular keyword because they're going to be so many variations. So do I think this is going to happen in the near future? Like twelve months? No, probably not. Unless, you know, we have some major antitrust trial where, you know, the american government decides that Google has to break up and there are consequences maybe faster than that, but chances are we're not going to see any actual user behavior change for another two 3510 years until people really become used to using these AI search engines and they trust the results so that they actually start to talk to them like real people. It's meaty. It's fascinating. Nobody knows, but I cannot wait to watch and see how we start to interact with this technology and it becomes more mainstream over time. Mordy Oberstein: Thank you so much, Garrett. Make sure to give Garrett a follow over on LinkedIn and on Twitter at Garrett Sussman or X. What do you want to call it? It's such an interesting conversation. He made a great point, or interesting point. It is a great point and an interesting point about the accuracy. Like for example, I actually looked up like best SEO podcast and Garrett had the rankable podcast. They got his name wrong as a host. Crystal Carter: Right. Mordy Oberstein: So will the format allow you to deep dive the way you want to deep dive? I feel like for a top level query or top level search, like, yeah, it's probably like that's a no brainer. Like, you're going to see people going to the chat GPTs of the world, but for deeper investigations, like, I don't know, how do I deal with kidney? Like, I don't know if I want to go to chat DBT for that. But really looking to get like a balanced look and really dive into the topic. Maybe it's not the easiest way to explore, I don't know. But the accuracy thing, I know it's great, but there's, there's, there's still, and it's definitely better than it was before, but there are still a lot of instances where it's not exactly accurate. And if you're going to be like, well, I have to pick a search engine, which am I going to go to? Even like, no, 80% of the time might be great. That 20% is still going to weigh on people's minds. I feel like I, I feel like. Crystal Carter: Though, that main Google search is not always accurate either. So I feel like what I tend to use in terms of as a user, because I use multiple search engines is I go to Google and I can't find what I need or if I don't even know where to start, right? If I'm like, I don't even know what this is called, I don't know what this is. I need a thing that will help me to do this. And then they'll say, well, you might need one of this, this, this and this. And I'm like, okay, well, what is that? And then they'll explain that. The LLM will explain the information there. But he was talking about like conversational topics. When you go to Copilot, they have the microphone as the easiest thing for you to use. Crystal Carter: Like it's, it's really high priority. When you use the copilot app, the microphone is super useful and you literally just say what you want and then it will spit out something, something that you need. And I think that that's having the microphone as a central search tool is going to make you more likely to speak more conversationally, like Garrett is talking about. Similarly, within with Bing recently, they, they opened up their chat bar, like, you know, when you need to go onto it and it's like, oh, I think it's like 2000 characters or something they opened it up to. And all of these LLMs keep expanding the character count that you can add in for what you need. So I've had it before where I'm trying to troubleshoot a piece of code and before you were able to only able to put in a certain amount and then you'd sort of top off at the characters. And now I can put in pretty much the whole document and say, I have this documentation, I have this piece of code. Please can you help me debug it? And then it will help you to pull those things out. Crystal Carter: So I think that when we're thinking about search and how people are going from some of these tools into a website, I think the trust factor is important. I think for ymyl stuff, it's super, super important. I was looking at some financial question or something and I said, if my income is this, how much should I invest in this? If my income is this, how could. And then it was like, it was like, you should. And then the number that I put on the income or whatever, they were like, the whole number is what you should invest in the thing. And I'm like, that's terrible advice. Luckily, I'm not a complete moron, but if somebody was to just follow that advice wholesale, they would be putting their entire savings into whatever this investment thing is and would have nothing. And the thing that's fascinating about that is that if you go onto, I mean, break the fourth wall, I was looking at Cedars type types, things where you look at supporting smaller companies, startups and stuff. Crystal Carter: And if you go on one of those websites, it has disclaimers all over the website that's like, be careful. Investment is risky. Make sure you've read all the terms and conditions. Do not invest everything. Blah, blah, blah. If you go to buy a credit card, they say, please be careful about all of these stuff. Mordy Oberstein: Like, credit cards are coffee, coffee is hot, please be careful. Right? Crystal Carter: There's all of these different disclaimers, but in chat and copilot, there was nothing. It was just like, go, like, invest all of the, everything that you want, like, make all this money, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, guys, like, where are the, you know, you should understand it's. Mordy Oberstein: Not always there yet. That's kind of the thing. It's not always there yet. And that it's a bad association. Like, it's all about it. These kind of things of trust is all about associations. It's a bad association. I don't think it's there yet. Mordy Oberstein: I do think though, like, what's interesting or perhaps different about, let's say, like Google's use of AI versus like, going to chat. If the Google's a overview doesn't give you what you want, or it's a little bit wonky or whatever it is, you have the actual results right underneath it. So even though the results sometimes aren't always right, they're diverse. So like, the top results, not what you want, the second one might be so like that. That diversity of sources, I don't think is something that's ever going to go away. I think it's like inbuilt in what we want is when we want to look at a topic. And I wonder if, I mean, I searched GBT something different, but like the chat GPTs of the world, that kind of format, what really lend itself to what people ultimately really want. Again, it's a lot. Mordy Oberstein: There's a lot to discuss there. Who knows what we're talking about? AI products. We have a little treat for you because we know someone who knows a lot about AI products. No matter what AI search engines you might be using or what it might mean for user behavior, there's no doubt that the technology has already impacted your marketing team and one way, shape, form or another, I completely botched that idiom. And it's fine. I'm okay with it. I'm hallucinating right now. I'm AI. Mordy Oberstein: Anyway, the question is, in what way should AI move large scale marketing teams or big organizations, or even small ones too, into action? To help us end this, we're going across the wix verse with our very own vp of marketing enterprise, Paula Mejia. And this very special, as I already mentioned, across the Wix verse. Three, two, one, ignition. Crystal Carter: Lift up. Mordy Oberstein: Paula, welcome to the show. Paula Mejia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here, you guys. Mordy Oberstein: I'm terrified right now. It's Monday morning. This is like one of the first things, like, I'm actually doing with, like, you're the first person I'm speaking to this week. Paula Mejia: Oh, that's so. Actually, you are also, other than my children, who woke up at like. Mordy Oberstein: No, I spoke to my wife and children. Like, those are not people. That's family. Crystal Carter: We had a silent school run. I don't know about you guys, my kids. Mordy Oberstein: I don't have a silent anything. I'm lying. Crystal Carter: We didn't at all. There was lots of shouting. Mordy Oberstein: There's lots of shouting. That sounds. Crystal Carter: Where are your socks? Where are they? Anyway? Mordy Oberstein: Oh, my God, the socks, right? What the hell with the socks and the shoes? Crystal Carter: Takes forever for anyway. Mordy Oberstein: I love system. Paula Mejia: I have a system. So outside of marketing our enterprise solution, I have systems for finding socks. I will share it with you separately. Crystal Carter: No, please share it now. Mordy Oberstein: Okay. Yeah. Paula Mejia: Those like grocery bags that are like, the sustainable ones that are like nets? Crystal Carter: Yes. Paula Mejia: You know? Okay. I have three kids, and they're really young, so they have similarly sized feet, which is part of the problem because I'm like this. I don't know whose sock this is, and somehow it doesn't fit everyone. So anyway, so I got three of those nets and I hang them next to the laundry. So, so each net has a name, and then I put all the socks in their corresponding child's net. And then I have a basket on the side for all the pairless socks. And so they just live there until like two weeks. And if you don't find your match within that time frame. Mordy Oberstein: Oh, that's smart. That's smart. Paula Mejia: You go, you are done. I don't want anything to do with you. It's not very environmentally friendly, but like, I just can't with the, like one sock. Crystal Carter: You can recycle them at TK Maxx. Shout out to TK Maxx. You can recycle the spare socks at TK Maxx. Yes, you can. And also, this is one of the reasons why Paula does what she does, because she finds solutions for things. She finds solutions not just for socks, but for your whole enterprise. She's very good at this kind of. Mordy Oberstein: Thing, which is what we should be talking about. So AI for large marketing teams, I'll start with this off. I feel like there's been a little bit of pushback in the, in the digital marketing space, especially in larger organizations around AI. It was neat, it was awesome. We tried to implement it and it didn't exactly go as we thought it would, or we lack differentiation. We're worried about what it's going to mean for all these different concerns that maybe you don't have at the SMB level, but you might have at the enterprise level. What are you seeing out there in the enterprise ether? Paula Mejia: Yeah, no, I totally hear that. So I think before you assess the impact that AI has had for marketing teams today, I would just first look at what marketing teams, and especially leaders of marketing team, they're feeling. And what they're feeling is a ton, a ton of pressure. So I think marketing has evolved a lot over the last couple of years, and the list of responsibilities for marketing teams just keeps getting bigger and bigger. So where you used to be responsible for brand and growth, now you're responsible for, you know, ginormous P and ls. But you have less budget, you have less resources. All sorts of additional business metrics are kind of, of part of the KPI's for marketers. And marketing takes a lot of time, and it's really not that easy to do, even though a lot of people think it looks easy. Paula Mejia: And this is why I think you also see ten years of like, senior executives in marketing being quite short compared to others. So I think the average tenure, first CMO is two years, whereas everyone else in the C suite is more than five. So you kind of enter this world of like, pressure, pressure, pressure, less resources, deliver more, and in comes AI for marketers, right? And everyone is like, oh my God, a little scared. Maybe it'll take some more jobs, but it should bring a ton of efficiency, right? You should be able to create content like that. There should be no problem. It should be super great. And yet that kind of sense of urgency and lack of support, I would say organizationally, still is very much felt for marketers. And I think right now the reason is that AI feels a bit like a false promise to marketing teams in terms of the efficiencies it can deliver. Paula Mejia: Because while it's being used to varying degrees in different organizations, as you said, where it is being used, it's mostly in small kind of slivers of content creation. So aspiring partner for your content writer, maybe editing certain pieces of your blogs, occasionally being used and designed to make the process a bit more efficient. But it isn't an integrated part of your marketing process. It's kind of bits and bolts. And then you look at kind of the process of going live with a marketing campaign and it's, you know, it's like a full, it's a huge thing that involves many levels of approval. Often it's, let's call it gate kept by technology that may or may not be set up in a way to make you more efficient. And this is obviously the area that Wix studio addresses the best. So what I often tell people to look at before they even look at the AI solution is, is what are the processes and systems in place your marketing team has? And are those the right ones to make it more efficient? Because right now, if you use AI to create more thought leadership content or a campaign, but you can't get to market quickly enough because you're depending on a developer or the technical person that works on your DXP, it doesn't matter if you create that content really fast, but no one will see it. Paula Mejia: And marketing content. Tell me if you guys agree. I don't think that there's such a thing as like Evergreen content anymore. I think most marketing content now is a very specific shelf life. So I see a lot of marketers under this pressure to create more. And the creation process is kind of getting there, but then the getting to the market with that thing you created is not being enabled by AI. And so this is part of the gap that I think we absolutely have to bridge and something that we're working on at Wix Studio to do so teaser. That's the new product that's coming out next year. Paula Mejia: But basically what we understood is, okay, you know, Wix generally, and Wix Studio has kind of solved the problem of creating sites at speed, creating digital assets at speed at the highest quality. Crystal Carter: Right. Paula Mejia: So that's kind of the end, right? And the beginning is more the content creation, which as I said, right now feels quite strange in terms of how AI can support you. And my content writers use club and my designer uses whatever synesthesia promotion video. So how do you kind of integrate all those things together? And this is, that's the idea. This is what we're working on, a platform, a marketing suite, let's call it, that enables marketing teams to create the highest quality assets that are enabled by AI. Crystal Carter: And I think that this is something I really like about the approach. So when you go into Wix studio, there's AI everywhere, but it's not overwhelming. Like I use Grammarly all the time and Grammarly is constantly trying to push AI on me and I'm like, I don't want it. Just tell me how to spell receipt because I always put the e and the I in the wrong place. Just tell me how to spell it, please. Thank you. And whereas like with Wix, like what we have is we haven't, we have an opt in for all of the areas and we have, and with Wix Studio, we have it built into all of the different parts. So if you're stuck on a page and you need to get that page out and you're, you're like, I don't know how to write this about page. Crystal Carter: You can click the create with text. If you've got a bunch of products that are brand new and you need to get product descriptions on there so that you go to market, then we have tools that help you do that. We have tools that help you do stuff in the CMS that you're like, okay, I want to create a bunch of dynamic pages. We have templates for that. Go forth and do what you need to do. I've got this image that somebody sent me. It's a great image, but it's only this many megapixels and I need it to be bigger and I don't want to have to wait two weeks for them to send me another picture. I can upscale it in this part of the, the CMS as well. Crystal Carter: You don't want to have to wait four weeks for the developer to come back to you to make the page responsive. All of that sort of stuff, we have it built in at point of use so you don't have to go and search for another tool to find it because I think that that can be really tricky for marketing teams right now. There's this need to adopt. But also, every time you try to adopt something, there's the time to learn it, but then there's something else that comes out right after that. And then you're like, oh, I spent all this time learning this other AI tool and now there's this new one and it's sort of, there's so much technology coming out right now, it's difficult to keep up. Paula Mejia: Exactly. No, that's exactly right. Mordy Oberstein: The pressure to adopt, I think, is interesting. It's almost like, it's like a value in and of itself. Like, we have to be using AI, but so it creates this, like, almost like weird, weird pressure on these teams to start using AI. But then when you start actually think you mentioned before, when you start thinking about, like, where it's actually applicable and where it's not applicable, it's really, you know, I would say not few and far between, but it's really targeted. I feel this. Right. I have a ton of content to get out, but I also am, like, very, very careful about my messaging. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: So it does work, but that it doesn't work. And, like, finding that sweet spot is so hard right now. Paula Mejia: I feel like, yeah, for sure. I think for me, it's really also important to say that when we talk about efficiency, I think it's often understood as, oh, marketers are just trying to put more and more content out there. And for me, it's less about. More and more about optimizing content you have. Crystal Carter: Right. Paula Mejia: Like, everything. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Paula Mejia: You need to be able to put things out and then iterate on it quickly. And what about. I need 17 different articles. I need to create the landing page that comforts best for my audience. So I need multiple versions generated quickly enough, which I think is very in line with what you said around your messaging. Like, it's about kind of getting that quality and efficiency at the right balance. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. That's why, like, reusing something that, where you can have, like a construct and have the AI reuse it in multiple places and you come in after the fact and kind of like, do your thing with that, with that construct, I think it's a great way to use AI. Crystal Carter: I think also when you're talking about building on the quality, like, there's the, you've mentioned evergreen content, and I think that our idea of evergreen content has definitely changed, partially because, like, the not trend cycle, but what's new, what's considered new content on Google, whatever is changing. Like, the gap between, like, and I, I talked about this at the beginning of the year. And then we're seeing it, seeing this play out is that the gap between content refreshes is getting much smaller because teams that are using AI, teams that have accelerated content updates. So, for instance, it might be that you put out a piece of content and then you look back at it and you're like, actually, I could put this into a table. You can use AI to take that paragraph. You drop that into your AI tool and say, make this into a table. And they can make it into a table. It's not rewriting. Crystal Carter: It doesn't have to hallucinate. You can check everything really quickly. You can pop that into the table and make the content better, more readable, accessible to more people. For instance, using tools like that, maybe you didn't have illustrations and maybe now you're able to do that, for instance, and repurposing content. Right. Paula Mejia: Like, we marketers have lots of ideas. You don't need to reinvent the wheel every time. You just need to get it to your audience, maybe in a different channel, make sure they didn't miss it on the channel that already existed. And repackaging content, that was good and that had an impact. Like, we need to be doing that. That's for sure. Our key to efficiency and making sure that our, our impact is higher. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, we just recorded 100th episode of this podcast a few weeks ago. So we recorded in a stream. We did a live version of it recorded in Streamyard. And Streamyard gives you a way to, like, auto generate clips through AI to repurpose them, like, just exactly what you're looking for. Like, I don't want to have to go back through, manually create an audiogram if you can, you know, cut that out for me and it's, and it's decent. Give me 20 of them. If ten of them are good, then great. I still save a ton of time. Crystal Carter: Right, right. And I think that there are a lot of people who are talking about efficiency. PricewaterhouseCooper recently did a report and they were saying that that's the biggest gains that we're seeing right now, today. And then as we go forward, we should see more AI agents that are more specialized and more unique for things. Where are you seeing marketing teams make the most efficiency gains right now from AI? Paula Mejia: Yeah, I think in content creation, that's where I see it the most. But I think that the impact really lies in the, in the hands of the creator. You guys have seen some really bad execution events in the SEO world, and I've all like people who I'm just like I, you know, I'm not an expert, but that looks really not like. Mordy Oberstein: The right way to create. Paula Mejia: I think some people, like I said, have misunderstood the efficiency that AI can bring with the fact that you still really much are the gatekeeper of the quality of that content. So I think this is, this, you know, like I said, there's, there is a promise that AI has for marketers. And I know we're close, but I think we need to be responsible in the way we use it and make sure that it is up to the highest quality standards. And that's something that I think anyone who is concerned about the future of your job with AI, whether you're in content design or in a more managerial area in marketing, I don't think that they will replace you. I don't think AI was going to replace an individual, but I think people who use AI will take your job if you're not using it. That for sure. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I agree. Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Paula Mejia: I think for agencies, I don't know if this is something that's come up in some of your conversations in the past, but I've spoken with a lot of agencies, some of which are more hesitant to use AI than others. And I think customers of agencies are rising up and asking, how are you using AI to make my money go farther? Show me the ways in which you're employing this new technology, or I'm going to go to another agency that can. And I think that, like I said, marketing and advertising is an area of a lot of pressure. And I think AI, because everyone hears about it and hears efficiency, you will be, in a way, accountable for showing how you're using it, but also making sure the quality is of the right standard. Crystal Carter: I think the other thing is that. So I recently attended an event. There's a group in London called Agency Hackers, and they've got another one coming up at the beginning of the year called the robot, are coming. It's a great session. It's very hands on about AI and how people are using AI. I spoke to loads of agencies there about how they're using AI and how we use AI at Wix and how one of the things, so just to give us the wix first, a little bit behind the fourth wall or whatever, at Wix, like, and you posted about this, actually on your LinkedIn, Paula, about how, like, we had, we, you know, we regularly have, like, AI workshop days. Like, we have, like, what can we do with AI? Let's have, let's talk about, like, different things that we're doing with AI. We have like, you know, we have, you know, working groups where people are trying things, testing things, iterating with things, talking to each other about how they're, how they're using it. Crystal Carter: But what's really important, and one of the things I love about Wix is that, like, we test things and as a team, as a company, as a business, we're not afraid to like, try something and see what happens and learn from it. If you're an agency, enterprise business, any kind of business, if you're not using AI, then you're also not learning how to use AI. If you're not using it in any way, then you don't know, you know, what you can do or how you can do it. We had Dale Bertrande on for a great webinar a few months ago, and one of the things he was talking about was a really good way to get started is to use Chachi. He had a couple of, a couple of ways. One was to try to use Chachi PT for everything, and then you'll learn very quickly what you can't use it for. Another way was to give it your to do list and say, how can you help me with this? And that can be really useful as well. But testing iterating and not expecting it to be, not expecting it to be perfect the first time, so, so, so important, I think. Mordy Oberstein: I think you have to kind of realize, like, where it is and where it's not really applicable categorically. Like, if you're on the performance side, like, there's gonna be a lot more ways where it's really, really, really easy and much more linear to realizing how you can use AI. Let's say you're more like, on the brand side, and especially in a world where content has become much more conversational, that you're going to have a more of a difficult time using it, or I was a more difficult time. You're going to be a little more creative in how you're going to use it. I use it in the research phase. I can use it to write up to x points where you're going to have to be a little more cautious, a little more strategic about how you go about implementing it. And again, if you're a marketing manager listening to this and you have multiple teams under you, I think you need to realize that different types of teams are going to be able to use the AI in different ways in different moments. It's not a linear equation. Paula Mejia: Absolutely. I will say, though, about the brand component, at least our solution does allow marketing teams, especially with larger integrated marketing teams, where I keeping that consistent tone of voice across, whether it's a franchise model or just different localized teams, that does enable you to keep more consistency in place just by putting certain guardrails in terms of how changes are rolled out across all your sites, making sure that it's following certain brand guidelines. So there are some things kind of helping that brand consistency component that I think teams really need to be aware of. But yeah, back to your point, Crystal. I think something that marketers are also responsible for on top of brand awareness, growth, conversion, blah, blah, is a tech stack. Now, no matter what you do, you're a technology user. And if you're managing a team, you need to be up to date on what technology they're using. Are they using the right one? Are they using outdated technology? Do you have even just from an ROI perspective, do you have too many licenses for things that are not bringing you value? Like do your tech stack audits people, even if you're not really like, this is kind of like a realization I had. Paula Mejia: I was at an event recently that we hosted in London and I was talking to someone about their CRM and they're like, oh, we have three CRMs. And I almost fell out of my chair, girl. Crystal Carter: Why? Paula Mejia: And you know, it's like legacy and also different teams. We don't like there was a some kind of reason, but you know, from an efficiency and like data quality perspective, three CRM's not the way to go, you guys. Crystal Carter: This is like your sock. If you haven't found your socks in two weeks, if you haven't touched that CRM in two weeks, let it go. Mordy Oberstein: Having worked two different SEO tool providers, I can tell you like, there's a significant amount of their user base or people who are paying large amounts of money every month who don't log into the tool. Crystal Carter: It's like people who go to the gym or who have a gym membership and. Mordy Oberstein: Exactly, that's what. Yeah, that's the SEO equivalent. Right, Paula? Folks want to keep up to date with what you're doing on the enterprise side for marketers and AI. Where can they find you? Paula Mejia: You can find me on LinkedIn. That's my, that's my jam these days. Mordy Oberstein: So everybody's jammed these days because there's nowhere else to go. Paula Mejia: Also true. Mordy Oberstein: Also speaking truth on the serves up podcast. Thank you so much, Paula, for coming on and telling us about the enterprise product. And we'll see you out there. Paula Mejia: Yeah, happy to. Thanks so much. Have a good day. Mordy Oberstein: Make sure, you follow Paul Mejia over on LinkedIn. Paul is wonderful, you know, also wonderful, Barry's wonderful, and all the other people who cover the SEO news as well. Which brings us to this week's snappy news. Crystal Carter: In a major development that was the talk of the digital marketing world, Semrush has announced its acquisition of third Door Media, the parent company of search Engine Land. This acquisition also includes all of their door media's brands, including SMX, the search Marketing Expo, Martech.org, comma, the Martech Conference, and digital Marketing Expo. For anyone that's been keeping score, this is another jewel in the some rush SEO media crown alongside backlinko and traffic think tank, this is quite the media portfolio. In other news, Google has announced a significant leadership change. Nick Fox has been appointed as the new head of Google Search, succeeding Prabhakar Raghavan, who is transitioning to chief technologist. Fox has been at Google since 2003 and will now oversee the knowledge and information division, which includes search, ads, e commerce, products and other things. This leadership change comes amidst lots of competition and legal pressures as Google faces lots of challenges from lots of different angles. Speaking of Google challengers over there at Bing, Microsoft is integrating new AI features into their search platform, so you can expect to see AI enhanced summaries providing concise information from different online sources appearing in the knowledge panel section. Crystal Carter: Though these aren't quite widely available just now, you should expect to see them roll out in the near future. Also from Bing, there have been lots of reports that there are bugs within the Bing webmaster tools API and documentation. Ryan Siddle, for instance, highlighted at least five issues, including problems with setting country and region on site requests. Microsoft has responded, saying that they acknowledge the bugs and that they are actively working to fix them. So they've already got two scheduled. And that concludes the snappy news. Mordy Oberstein: That was wonderful. Thank you, Barry and all those who cover the news. When Eric Clapton wrote wonderful tonight, he was writing it about Barry. Indeed. I hope that makes you feel a little bit awkward, Barry, that's special kind of way. If we're talking about AI and we mentioned who can you follow the very beginning of this episode for more SEO and AI awesomeness? This then Eli Schwartz is your man. Eli spends a lot of time talking about SEO and AI. He did so on our 100th episode of the podcast, and he does so all over LinkedIn. Mordy Oberstein: A lot of thought provoking question about how AI will not just impact SEO practice, but impact the SEO industry and the amount of money you're able to earn as an SEO so check out Eli on LinkedIn. It's a lot of great content about that. Crystal Carter: Yeah, I think he's absolutely, absolutely great. And he did a webinar with us as well, which was really good as well, talking about all of these different tools and talking about how they impact. And he talks a lot about brand and about reputation as well. So he was joined by Anne Smarty for that webinar. Highly recommend checking it out. Mordy Oberstein: He's a good dude, and she's a good follow also. Wow, so many follows. Crystal Carter: So many follows. Check it out. Mordy Oberstein: How many follows? But where do you follow people now? Not an ex, I guess. I guess. Crystal Carter: LinkedIn. Mordy Oberstein: LinkedIn. Crystal Carter: Yeah. Mordy Oberstein: That's also weird. Crystal Carter: Yeah, that's all we have, Morty. Mordy Oberstein: I know, I know. It's all that's left. It's problematic. Crystal Carter: I get more action on Instagram than I do on Twitter. Mordy Oberstein: I'm not doing Instagram. I get a mix. It's funny to see what works well on X and what works well on LinkedIn. They're not the same thing. It's really interesting. Anyway, anyway, we can. Crystal Carter: That's a different podcast. Mordy Oberstein: That's a different. That's a different griping session. Thank you for joining us on the Surface up podcast. That sounded like Sean Connery podcasts. Are you going to miss us? Not to worry. We're back next week with a new episode as we dive into refreshing your SEO career. Look forward wherever you consume your podcast or on the Wix studio SEO learning hub, over@wix.com SEO learn looking to learn more about SEO? Check out all the great content webinars on the Wix studio learning hub at, you guessed it, Wix.com SEO learn. Don't forget to give us a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify. Mordy Oberstein: Until next time, peace of love and SEO. Related episodes Get more SEO insights right to your inbox * * By submitting this form, you agree to the Wix Terms of Use and acknowledge that Wix will treat your data in accordance with Wix's Privacy Policy . Subscribe Subscribe to our newsletter and stay on the pulse of SEO